Canadian Heritage Committee on May 28th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

I'm calling this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 39 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Before we begin, I'd ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. They are measures in place to help prevent audio incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, especially our interpreters. You'll notice that there's a QR code on the card. It links to a short awareness video.

Pursuant to the routine motion adopted by the committee, I can confirm that witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before you speak. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

I'll remind members that the committee will meet on Thursday, June 11, to finalize a report on social media and to provide instructions to the analysts so they can prepare draft reports for our studies on the state of the media and for the study that we're launching today. To be clear to members, that is June 11.

I understand that we will ask the minister again to reconsider his decision regarding his participation in the study on the state of the media. Regardless, analysts will be able to prepare a draft this summer and make adjustments this fall, should the minister decide to participate.

I'll also advise the committee that our clerk is celebrating 25 years of service today, so congratulations. I was going to bring a cake, but given that we're here at 8:15 in the morning, I wasn't sure it was necessary.

We'll go on to today's business. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're meeting today for our first meeting on the study of the state of creative and performance spaces across Canada.

We have Erin Benjamin with us in the room today. She was formerly the chief executive officer of the Canadian Live Music Association. We also have the Falun Dafa Association of Canada. Joel Chipkar is a spokesperson and Joel Etienne is the lawyer. Jennifer Brewin, from Globe Theatre, is here with us online. Welcome.

We also have with us, by video conference, Patrick Kearney, the chief executive officer of the Regroupement des festivals régionaux artistiques indépendants, and Jon Weisz, the executive director of Scènes de musique alternatives du Québec.

Welcome.

Each of you will have five minutes for an opening statement, and then we will turn to members for questions.

We'll start with Erin Benjamin.

You have the floor now for five minutes.

[Erin Benjamin, Former Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Live Music Association, As an Individual]

Madam Chair, Vice-Chair, PS Myles and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to appear today.

I'm here in my former capacity as president and CEO of the Canadian Live Music Association. My brand new role is executive vice-president at the Ottawa Board of Trade, where I continue to work on issues connected to economic growth, community vibrancy and the conditions that help local economies thrive.

Canada's live music sector is a significant economic and cultural force. According to the Canadian Live Music Association's “Hear and Now” study, released last year, live music activity generated nearly $11 billion in economic impact and supported more than 100,000 jobs nationwide. The sector includes major venues, festivals, promoters, touring companies and independent operators, all operating in a deeply interconnected and complex ecosystem.

Large-scale operators generate substantial economic activity. They attract tourism and support hospitality and downtown economies. They create jobs and help position Canadian cities competitively on the global stage.

Independent venues and operators play a fundamentally different role within that ecosystem. They are where artists first develop, where creative risks are taken, where local communities form and where the talent pipeline that ultimately feeds the broader commercial industry begins. The success we see later in theatres, arenas, major festivals and international touring circuits very often starts in these smaller rooms.

At the same time, independent operators are increasingly operating under extraordinary pressure. Rising rents and insurance costs, labour shortages, inflation, post-pandemic debt burdens and growing market consolidation are all placing a strain on businesses that already tend to operate within very limited margins. Unlike larger operators, many independent venues don't have diversified revenue streams, large sponsorship structures, significant access to capital or real estate leverage to help absorb market volatility.

Despite these pressures, they continue to invest in emerging Canadian talent. They support local economies. They animate our neighbourhoods and main streets, creating cultural vibrancy that communities increasingly recognize as part of economic competitiveness and quality of life. This is why this conversation is not just about culture. It is about economic infrastructure and market diversity, talent development and tourism, and community vitality and the long-term sustainability of a sector that contributes significantly to Canada's economy and international cultural presence.

I also think it's important to acknowledge that the federal government recognized the strategic importance of this ecosystem during the pandemic. Thank you. The targeted investment in budget 2022 helped stabilize and save critical parts of the live music sector during an unprecedented period of disruption. More recently, the reinstatement of the promoter and festival support components of the Canada music fund represents a really important recognition that independent operators require unique policy tools that reflect the realities of how the sector functions today. That matters because healthy ecosystems depend on balance.

Canada's live music sector works precisely because different parts of the industry perform different functions, but independent venues and operators aren't simply one segment of the sector. They're foundational to its long-term sustainability and renewal. If these spaces continue to weaken, the impacts will extend far beyond individual businesses. Over time, fewer artists will be able to build sustainable careers. Fewer communities will have access to live performances. The industry will become more concentrated, less locally rooted and ultimately less resilient and competitive.

Canada already has an extraordinary live music ecosystem with enormous growth potential. The opportunity now is to ensure that public policy continues evolving in ways that recognize the essential role that independent venues and operators play within that ecosystem, and the broader economic and cultural value they create across the country.

Thank you very much. I very much look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

Next we'll move on to the Falun Dafa Association of Canada.

Between the two Joels, you have five minutes for an opening statement. Go ahead.

[Joel Chipkar, Spokesperson, Falun Dafa Association of Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members, for the opportunity to speak.

We're here to show how foreign interference is systematically targeting municipal, provincial, private and federal theatres in Canada and to urge this committee and the government to protect our venues and artistic freedom.

For 20 years, the Falun Gong spiritual community in Canada has brought Shen Yun Performing Arts, the renowned classical Chinese dance company, to theatres right across this country. However, the Chinese Communist Party, under Xi Jinping's direct orders, has escalated a global campaign to stop the show through diplomatic pressure, 150 bomb threats worldwide, baseless lawsuits and leaked documents outlining a disinformation campaign using western media and social media against Shen Yun and Falun Gong.

Why would a so-called superpower fear a dance company? It's because Shen Yun celebrates a China before Communism and exposes the Communist Party's 27-year ongoing and horrific human rights crimes against Falun Gong practitioners in China. That's why the Communist Party wants Shen Yun silenced.

In the past two years, Canada has seen over 20 hoax bomb and death threats targeting Shen Yun theatres, Parliament Hill and politicians. This year, Shen Yun has faced booking denials, theatre evacuations and cancellations. For example, on March 15, Mississauga's Living Arts Centre received a bomb threat from China. It threatened to bomb the theatre and Parliament Hill if Shen Yun performed. The theatre was evacuated, and the show was delayed 90 minutes until police determined that the threat was not credible.

Weeks later, Toronto's Four Seasons Centre cancelled six Shen Yun shows after similar threats, which police quickly deemed unfounded. The sender later mocked Canada, saying it cannot be taken seriously, and claimed allegiance to “my motherland's Communist Party”.

In April, not only did Vancouver's Queen Elizabeth Theatre receive similar threats, which police traced to China, but Global News reported that the Chinese consulate directly urged civic theatre officials to cancel Shen Yun. This proved that this is a coordinated campaign by the Communist Party here in Canada and not spontaneous acts of harassment.

After hosting Shen Yun for 18 years, Montreal's Place des Arts declined dates for 2026 and 2027.

Here in Ottawa, Shen Yun was not given dates for 2026 and 2027 after performing for 18 years at the National Arts Centre. It's a decision they called private and confidential. This happened after NAC executives met twice with the Chinese ambassador about cultural co-operation. A Crown corporation getting over $60 million a year in taxpayer funding should avoid decisions that serve China's censorship goals.

In each case, the presenter and theatre were left to face national security-level threats alone.

[Joel Etienne, Barrister and Solicitor, Falun Dafa Association of Canada]

Shen Yun is deeply connected to Canadians' right to present lawful artistic and cultural expression, free from foreign state intimidation. Members of the Canadian Falun Dafa community, who help present Shen Yun, are entitled, under the Charter of Rights and Canadian law, to participate fully in Canadian cultural life without fear, intimidation or foreign interference.

Our recommendations to the committee are the following.

Canadian Heritage should establish federal guidance and response protocols for publicly funded cultural institutions facing foreign state intimidation. Rental decisions under such circumstances should not be treated as private business matters.

Publicly funded venues and Crown corporations, including the NAC, should receive training on foreign interference, transnational repression and diplomatic pressure tactics. The NAC should be directed to offer Shen Yun dates to perform in Ottawa.

Public security agencies—the RCMP, CSE, CSIS and local police services—should assess and investigate the broader pattern of foreign interference and transnational crime targeting the cultural sector, including the threats and intimidation campaigns, not merely as isolated public-order incidents, and should enforce relevant provisions of existing legislation.

Global Affairs Canada should review whether consular pressure on Canadian venues violated the Vienna convention and should establish transparency mechanisms for diplomatic communications directed toward Canadian artistic programming.

We ask this committee to help ensure that no Canadian theatre is again made an instrument of foreign censorship and to help protect art institutions and their clients from foreign interference.

Thank you, Madam Chair and Mr. Vice-Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

I will turn next to Jennifer Brewin from the Globe Theatre, who is online.

You have five minutes.

[Jennifer Brewin, Artistic Director, Globe Theatre]

Thank you, everybody.

I'm speaking to you from Regina, Saskatchewan, also known as “Pile of Bones”, located on Treaty No. 4, the homeland of the Nêhiyawak; the Anihšināpēk; the Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota peoples; and the Métis.

I have the privilege of serving as the artistic director of the Globe Theatre. It is located in the heart of downtown Regina, with an operating budget of over $5 million. I'm going to speak about the Globe as one example of an arts organization's life in its community.

For 60 years, the Globe Theatre has been a cornerstone of cultural life in Saskatchewan's capital city and in southern Saskatchewan. Like many cultural institutions across the country, we play a significant role in the social, economic and artistic life of our communities.

The Globe itself has a remarkable history. Founded in 1966, it was Saskatchewan's first professional theatre, and it remains the country's only permanent professional theatre-in-the-round. Our home is the historic Prince Edward Building, now known as MacCorquodale Place, in the heart of downtown Regina.

I want to note that we're in the final chapter of a transformative $48-million renewal project—the results of years of planning and more than five years of construction. A quick look at the donors for the building indicates that they all come from homegrown Saskatchewan businesses.

We host and inspire prairie storytelling, job creation and cultural discourse. Our new community theatre is purpose-built to remove barriers to use by the many diverse communities that call southern Saskatchewan home.

We host numerous events. We run a season of five productions, as well as other special events, comedy shows and dance recitals. A recent production of Frozen ran for eight weeks and performed to almost 19,000 people in a city with a population of under 240,000. That's a pretty attractive centre of attention.

We hire more than 150 artists, technicians, production staff, educators and administrators. We collaborate with dozens of sponsors, community organizations and cultural partners.

Clearly, the Globe Theatre, just as many institutions do, plays an important role in the revitalization of downtown and in Saskatchewan's broader community. Arts and cultural institutions bring people into city centres in the evenings, and on weekends they support restaurants, hotels, retail businesses, parking services and tourism. We animate public spaces, encourage foot traffic and help create vibrant downtowns.

Just recently, we were closed for five years. When we opened, the restaurants started to fill up again. They had been empty for numerous years, and all of a sudden they were looking at our programming to find out how to staff their restaurants for sold-out nights.

This season, more than $579,000 in provincial sales tax and liquor tax revenue is anticipated to be generated directly through Globe activity. Our annual operating grant from the province is just over $200,000, so it's an estimated 200% return on the provincial investment. These numbers tell an important story. Investment in cultural infrastructure supports artists, strengthens downtowns, drives tourism, creates employment and contributes materially to the livability and identity of our communities.

In closing, I want to return to and ask everyone to consider the role the arts play in public life and in the economy. During postwar America, Roosevelt loved the arts, as they played a particular role in the economic revival and renewal of postwar America. They later became regarded as a practical example of Keynesian economics in action, because theatre artists are not people who accumulate wealth. Most artists do not make enough to save significantly. They spend what they earn. They spend it locally on rent, groceries, restaurants, child care, transit and small businesses. The money goes back into the community immediately. With a budget of $5 million, the Globe Theatre spends a lot on its local communities, and you can feel it.

Tommy Douglas's government in Saskatchewan in the 1950s was the first to set up arm's-length arts boards because, as he said, the arts create community where there otherwise might be none. I find that idea especially compelling because it came from a man of the church, and even then, he recognized the role the arts play in diverse cultural infrastructure.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Well done. I will take a moment to appreciate, ma'am, how early it is in the morning for you in Regina right now. Thank you for being here with us at this time of day.

The floor now goes to Patrick Kearney, the chief executive officer of the Regroupement des festivals régionaux artistiques indépendants.

Mr. Kearney, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Patrick Kearney, chief executive officer, Regroupement des festivals régionaux artistiques indépendants]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Regroupement des festivals régionaux artistiques indépendants, which represents more than 130 festivals in Quebec, now also brings together francophone festivals elsewhere in Canada. Our sphere of influence is therefore not just in Quebec.

I would like to talk to you about a situation now playing out in Canada and in Quebec. This is the dominance of a group called Live Nation, especially in Montreal. It owns 49% of a group called Evenko. The 49% gives it significant influence and allows it to keep obtaining support from grants, since the company remains Canadian.

The group formed by Evenko and Live Nation owns seven festivals in Quebec and six venues. Elsewhere in Canada, its position is even more dominant. In Toronto, for example, it owns all major events and all venues. It has a significant impact on the music scene in Montreal and elsewhere in Quebec. The monopoly is a real threat to Quebec's—not to say Canada's—cultural sovereignty.

We have frequently condemned this group's dominant position in Quebec to federal, provincial and municipal government authorities, from whom the group receives significant grants. The group's dominance is even greater in the rest of Canada. It is a curious paradox to see our governments subsidizing an American company like Live Nation, which is harming our culture.

Live Nation also owns Ticketmaster, which is 100% American. It is everywhere in the largest festivals and the biggest venues. Ticketmaster has created a concept called dynamic pricing, which greatly affects the cost of tickets. In the United States, Live Nation is facing lawsuits from more than 30 states and has had to spend more than $420 million in lawyers' fees. What clearer indication can there be that its practices are not acceptable? In Quebec, a class action against Ticketmaster about the cost of tickets is in progress.

We have heard little about the airing of Enquête's reporting on Radio-Canada last February. The report caused a shockwave in political and performing arts circles.

We might actually have expected politicians to react more strongly. We repeat that having such concentration in the hands of a huge player like Live Nation clearly threatens our culture, in that an American company controls it.

When we discussed the issue with the Enquête reporter, she actually acknowledged that it was the worst code of silence she had witnessed in her journalism career. It was stronger than the omertà of organized crime and the mafia. Very few people in Quebec and in Canada wanted to talk about the monopoly. This shows the power the group holds in Quebec and in Canada.

Unfortunately, little has changed since.

I have just come back from a trip to Europe for discussions on the concentration of major players in music. It is having many negative effects in Europe. For example, Live Nation's purchase of one of France's largest venues, where Céline Dion will perform, caused shockwaves in Europe. We believe that a partnership between Canada and Europe is needed to counter the strength of these major groups. We see that our Prime Minister has created many ties with Europe. Perhaps this is a good time to focus on this issue too.

We must bring this problem and this situation to the political level. It cannot remain a matter for the artists, the venues and the festivals to deal with.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

The floor now goes to the representative of Scènes de musique alternatives du Québec.

Mr. Weisz, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Jon Weisz, Executive Director, Scènes de Musique Alternatives du Québec]

Hello, everyone.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for including us in this study.

My name is Jon Weisz and I am the founder and executive director of Scènes de musique alternatives du Québec, or SMAQ. The association was founded in 2018 and today brings together more than sixty independent performance facilities throughout Quebec.

Independent performance facilities have a central role in the music ecosystem because they can accommodate the major transformations in the way culture is available. Today, more than 80% of live, professional music performances in Quebec take place in independent facilities. They are the laboratories of artistic innovation. For the public, they also play a major role in discoverability, as they introduce artists from Quebec and Canada in person. These venues also contribute to the vitality of local economies by attracting audiences to neighbourhoods, to municipalities and to regions. Today, more than 75% of artists' income is from touring. Independent performance facilities are therefore essential for their financial stability and for the development of their careers in the long term.

The first challenge that independent performance facilities face is chronic underfunding. The current envelope for halls in Quebec is a thin one indeed: one-third of what goes to venues in the rest of Canada.

Our first recommendation, therefore, is for the government to bring the amount of permanent funding for producers and for performance spaces to $10 million.

An investment of that kind would protect our cultural sovereignty. Without strong infrastructure to host our homegrown artists, Canada increases its dependency on foreign content, platforms and companies, mostly American, to shape our collective imagination and our access to music.

The second challenge is the precarious situation with the facilities. In Quebec, around 70% of independent performance facilities are leased. This makes them directly vulnerable to increased rental costs and to real estate sales, speculation and changes in use. Each time a lease is renewed, a number of tenants are anticipating increases of between 25% and 50%. In the last three years, other operating costs have increased by about 40%.

Our second recommendation, therefore, is for the federal government to support collective models of venue security that would establish independent performance facilities on a long-term basis.

The third challenge for independent performance facilities is the growing concentration in the market for live events.

Internationally, players like Live Nation and Ticketmaster have been strengthening their position through evermore aggressive vertical integration. This has fragmented, not to say dismantled, a number of cultural ecosystems.

In Quebec, the concentration took a specific form in 2019 when Live Nation Entertainment acquired 49% of Evenko. Today, this conglomerate controls a critical mass of major performance venues and festivals in Quebec. Therefore, half the profits from those events, supported by millions of dollars in public money, go off to Los Angeles.

While the huge integrated groups make record profits quarter after quarter, independent production continues to operate in an ecosystem that is growing evermore precarious.

Our recommendation, therefore, is that the federal government institute a solidarity fee on ticket sales for major events. To be specific, this would be a modest contribution on tickets for major concerts attracting a large audience. The fee would be paid into a fund for independent performance facilities.

A measure of that kind would recognize the artistic research and development role of those facilities. They are where the first risks are taken with emerging artists and new projects.

In conclusion, support for independent performance facilities is support for our cultural sovereignty. Investment in a strong network of independent venues protects our ability to bring our stories to life and to produce them for the public to discover.

Thank you for your attention. I look forward to your questions and am ready to answer them in either official language.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

That's great.

My thanks to all the witnesses for providing such succinct remarks.

We now begin with members' questions.

Ms. Thomas, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

My first question is for the Joels, Mr. Etienne and Mr. Chipkar.

With regard to the Falun Dafa and the Shen Yun performances, it's been noted in your testimony here today—and it's been widely noted throughout the media—that there has been interference from Beijing with regard to the performers, the performances and how they move forward. I'm wondering why the CCP is getting in the way with suppressive tactics. Why would it want to do that?

[Joel Chipkar]

In 1999, the Chinese Communist Party started a violent nationwide persecution against the peaceful spiritual practice known as Falun Gong, which was widely respected, supported, endorsed and even awarded by the Communist Party before its membership got so big that the Communist Party attacked it because of its independence and spiritual values. Since then, human rights groups have documented horrific crimes against humanity for the past 27 years. Most media and governments have remained silent on the persecution, although a lot of human rights organizations continue to report what's happening.

Shen Yun was formed in 2006 by members of the Falun Gong community, some facing persecution in China, to bring awareness to the beauty of true traditional Chinese culture before Communism and also to shed light on the human rights issues happening in China today under Communist Party rule. That's the reason the Communist Party targets this. They want to hide the crimes against humanity that they've been responsible for over the past 27 years.

Shen Yun brings to light on stage, through gorgeous, expressive classical Chinese dance and full live orchestras, wonderful and heroic messages of hope and compassion—stories that have happened throughout China's generations. The Chinese Communist Party doesn't want that. That's the reason.

[Joel Etienne]

May I follow up on the question?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Sure.

[Joel Etienne]

It's foreign interference, but it really has a true Canadian dimension. Including the organizers and the performers, the entire Shen Yun community is a very Canadian community. You have 18- and 19-year-old kids, Canadian-born kids, who are on stage with years of training. They're facing bomb threats, criminal harassment and the fear of cancellation. I'm a father of a 19-year-old. My children are not talented enough to be Shen Yun performers, but as a parent, I think it's a horrible situation to have to live with, not knowing if these bomb threats will manifest themselves.

As far as I'm concerned, it's really a situation of transnational crime that has an impact on Canadians—what Canadians get to see and what Canadians get to experience culturally speaking—and on Canadian artists and Canadian performers. With anything that's transnational crime, sure the origins.... Take as an analogy criminal drug cartels. Cocaine is harvested outside the country and imported from outside the country, but the dealers are here. The crime has an immediate criminal impact in the country.

As an analogy, it's the same situation here. The difference is that the scheme is very intelligent, because the Criminal Code infractions originate from outside the country. Under diplomatic cover, the work is then finished by consular officials. Under the veil of diplomatic immunity, they go about trying to seal the deal and convince venues to disenfranchise Shen Yun, which is, as I've said, a Canadian institution with Canadian artists and performers.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

On that note, there is evidence that in Vancouver, Chinese consular officials met with Vancouver City Hall and tried to apply pressure with regard to the cancellation of the performances. We know that here in Ottawa, the National Arts Centre has refused to enter into an agreement with Shen Yun to have their performances there, even though in years past they were totally fine with it. It would appear that perhaps there's some pressure behind closed doors being applied there. We also know that in Toronto there were bomb threats that resulted in the cancellation of performances, even though the police actually deemed those threats to be non-credible.

We know that these things are happening. We also know that action can be taken to better protect vulnerable Canadians, in this case the Falun Dafa community. I guess my curiosity is this: What would you recommend in terms of action that should be taken to better protect those who observe Falun Dafa and those who perform within Shen Yun?

[Joel Etienne]

Federal departments are supported by other federal departments. The Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, OSFI, is supported by CSIS when it does security checks. When you want tax credits or you need extra monies for your envelope, you go to the Department of Finance. Any time my law firm sues the government, it's a lawyer for the Department of Justice who shows up, no matter what the department is. Ultimately, as a department, you have the full support, if you call on it, of CSIS, the RCMP and Global Affairs.

As far as I'm concerned, when diplomats are involved in engaging in criminal activity in Canada, they can be made personae non gratae and asked that the behaviour stop or asked to leave the country. There's no doubt—I don't think there's any debate—that the activities are Criminal Code activities. Mischief, threats to life and harassment are Criminal Code activities.

The CCP is very clear about its mandate in relation to Shen Yun and Falun Gong. It's unequivocal. It comes from the top. It is organized, and it is very public. They're not shying away from their feelings, certainly not when they're meeting with Canadian officials and asking them to ban Shen Yun. As far as I'm concerned, that's complicity. That's conspiracy.

I would ask the committee and members of Parliament to refrain from looking at this as silos. This is a—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. We're out of time for that question, but it's understood.

Mr. Al Soud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to be with us today.

I am not an artist, but I am the proud member of Parliament for one of the most diverse and vibrant communities in our country, and certainly an artistic community. I fundamentally recognize the value of these venues and the performance opportunities that young and emergent artists get.

I'll also make a point of saying that despite aging a couple of months back—I am now one year older—I'm still fairly young, and I have the privilege of engaging with young artists all the time. Some of my favourite videos online are of artists performing in smaller venues before they became famous, because you can see a blend of three traits. I would say they are talent, passion and opportunity.

Ms. Benjamin and Ms. Brewin, you both work closely with independent venues and grassroots artists across the country. For many young Canadian musicians, smaller venues are where they perform for the first time. It's where they build confidence and it's where they start growing an audience. Could you speak to the value of these venues for emerging artists?

[Erin Benjamin]

I was one of those artists long before you were born. How long, I'm not going to say.

Honestly, they're fundamental to an artist's ability to, as I said in my remarks, develop an audience and build markets over time. Everyone loves to talk about a TikTok phenom's overnight success, but even those artists likely started somewhere else. The reality, especially in this country, is that touring, as Jon mentioned, is not only where artists earn most of their revenue; it's really how they build a fan base. If we don't have access to those performance spaces, we simply don't see that.

This was the crux during COVID, obviously. All of you would have felt this in your ridings, with emerging and especially independent artists who had no place to play. We almost lost an entire generation of emerging artists because of this, which is why the Canadian Live Music Association and so many other organizations work together to champion investment in the sector to save infrastructure so that we can continue to facilitate touring across the country at every level.

As I referenced in my remarks, it establishes the pipeline, and not every artist goes on to be a commercial success. I am also an example of that. I do something else now that I very much enjoy. The reality is that in the opportunity to share songs and stories with different communities from coast to coast to coast, that's where it happens. Whether it's a church basement or a library—and we might put some of those venues in the same sort of bucket for the purposes of this conversation—any contraction of those opportunities very likely means fewer performance opportunities for emerging artists, who may ultimately go on to write the song that your children dance to at their wedding. That's how it works.

We have a wonderful artist in the room who is a perfect example of that legitimately. David Myles's music has changed the way Canadians feel many times over, and in a good way. Truly, this is what artists do. If we don't have those spaces, we are simply not creating our artists of the future, and we're missing a huge opportunity as a country if that happens.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

That's very well said.

Ms. Brewin, do you want to add anything?

[Jennifer Brewin]

All the arts are labour-intensive, and theatre in particular because it's live performances and because it's usually more than one person. Emerging artists are going to exist in any culture over time and over history. What they need is space. As a person who used the Poor Alex Theatre and all these tiny spaces in Toronto, I know they need space. It's going to happen no matter what.

The other thing I see constantly is that independent art theatre-makers will get a grant of possibly $5,000 or $8,000, and they spend most of that in Toronto on space. I'm trying to figure out how on earth we can do it so they don't have to spend money on administrators and producers.

In particular, they just need space. They need a clean, safe space where they can make work and be creative. They need a black box, and they can make anything anywhere. A place where they're honoured, revered and cared for is inspiring. They're acknowledged for what they do by opening up the doors.

The University of Regina just started a residency program where their final year class cohort of emerging artists were residents in our company. It was great for our company to have those young people around. When they were in that space, they made something they could aspire to from being in a professional theatre environment. It was great for this company. We had an intergenerational story happening in our space.

Theatre artists need space to make work, and they will make it. They'll be independent. They're naturally entrepreneurial, so that's why a roof, walls and doors are really great.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you both.

Ms. Brewin, to the point on rising development pressures, which can at times make it more challenging for local creative spaces to survive, it's also important to highlight that young people are looking for accessible arts and music spaces closer to where they live. What federal policy tools do you believe could help preserve accessible creative and performance spaces in rapidly growing urban centres?

Perhaps I'll turn to Ms. Brewin and Ms. Benjamin, noting that you have roughly a minute left.