Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 1st, 2025

[Zoe Royer, Liberal, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair and esteemed colleagues.

To our panel, thank you very much for joining us today.

Once the new framework is fully implemented, what kinds of experiences can Canadian viewers expect daily in their experience with Netflix, with Spotify and with YouTube? What would that look like?

[Scott Shortliffe]

Thank you very much for the question.

Unfortunately, again, I cannot provide a precise answer, because those are the questions before us.

What we've heard in the presentations we've had throughout the summer is that people value having access to lots of content, including foreign content, but at the same time they want to have the opportunity to find Canadian content, so it really goes to the question about discoverability.

We posed this question directly in all three of the hearings we had in the last couple of months. We also commissioned a study on discoverability, looking at the best practices around the world, which we'll receive shortly and which we will make public, because I think that is the key question.

The dividing line that the commission has to walk is that we don't want to interfere with what people love about platforms, whether they're streaming platforms or any other way of getting content, but at the same time we want to make sure there are options there so that they can see Canadian content and access it easily and so that it's not buried somewhere 15 clicks into something.

That is exactly the question that is before us, and we look forward to being able to come back in the future and describe what our decisions are and how they will achieve that.

[Zoe Royer, Liberal, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

I'm really glad that you raised the business of discoverability. How will you measure Canadians' success rate in finding, discovering and being able to actually see Canadian content?

[Scott Shortliffe]

That's a fascinating question, and I'm going to try to do this in a pithy manner and not be a geek about it.

One thing that became clear as we met with intervenor after intervenor was that they said the data is everything and you cannot measure success unless you have data. Unless you have that, you don't know what you're getting into. It was frankly fascinating to even talk to some of the streamers—not just foreign streamers, but streaming companies in Canada—that talked about the challenges of asking, “Is this Canadian? If it is Canadian, is it anglophone or francophone? Is it indigenous, or is it not?”

What we walked away with was an appreciation that discoverability is difficult, because, first of all, you need clear definitions, which we are in the process of creating. Second, you need to make sure those are widely shared and widely understood. Third, you need to make sure there is then an infrastructure so you can share them and you're not comparing apples and oranges.

It's a huge task in front of us, but I think it's one that we, as staff, also find energizing, because if we can get this right, then we will be able to compare apples to apples, and we will therefore be able to have success measures that will be useful and transparent, not just for us but for Canadians.

[Zoe Royer, Liberal, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That is amazing. It really is an enormous task ahead.

In terms of the implementation of a major reform like this one, what have been some of the biggest challenges you've experienced so far, and what have you learned from them that will guide you into the future?

[Vicky Eatrides]

One of the biggest challenges is that it's a monumental task, as is finding that right balance. We know that everybody needs certainty. We've heard the urgency. We heard at our public hearing how important it is to move quickly and that measures need to be put in place right away. We've heard that. We've heard the need to move quickly, and it's balancing that with making sure we're consulting widely, as we have been told to do. It is in our nature as a quasi-judicial tribunal, but also, this legislation does put in place additional requirements in terms of consultation, so it's always about finding the right balance to make sure we're moving quickly and consulting broadly.

[Zoe Royer, Liberal, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Can you share examples of how the CRTC is ensuring that the voices of indigenous, French and English minority communities and youth and other equity-seeking groups are being captured?

[Scott Hutton]

We have something we call engagement teams. We built something called the indigenous relations team. We have a similar team with the official-language minority groups. We're doing something similar with accessibility and with consumer groups. We are going out there and trying to make it easier—we are a tribunal, as we've said—for them to come and share their views so that our decisions can take them into consideration. That's the approach that we are giving ourselves.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Hutton.

I will go to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Eatrides, in your opening remarks, you opened the door to topics other than broadcasting. However, I want to talk to you about the decision that allows large telecommunications companies to sell plans using the networks of other telecommunications companies. This measure was originally put in place to increase competition by allowing small players to move in to markets and offer consumers better prices. So the goal was to prevent monopolies from arising.

Companies like Cogeco, a well-established company in my region, in Centre-du-Québec, as well as in Mauricie, have decided to invest in their network. However, allowing the big players to come in and use these networks means that the smaller ones will no longer be able to afford to invest in maintaining their networks.

You say you have put these measures in place to ensure that businesses continue to invest in high-quality networks, but if this decision is upheld, the opposite will happen instead. Even the big companies won't want to invest because the maintenance of these networks costs a fortune. In the end, consumers will have had better rates over a short period of time, but in the long term, we will end up with poorly maintained networks. That's what we're hearing, generally speaking, from telecommunications companies.

How do you plan to remedy this situation?

[Vicky Eatrides]

Thank you for your question.

Before making our decision, we conducted 18 months of consultations and held a public proceeding and a public hearing. We heard from industry stakeholders, Competition Bureau Canada and consumer organizations.

Our decision was based on competition and investment.

When it comes to competition, we wanted consumers to have more choice and lower prices. However, we have also put in place measures to promote investment, such as preventing competitors from accessing networks for five years. We also took into account the high cost of investing in networks to determine the rates that companies have to pay large players to access their network. We know that investments are very expensive.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you. That's the time.

Moving on to the next five-minute round, we have Mr. Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

In terms of Google money, they came through with $100 million, and $63 million was distributed to digital media and some newspapers.

What does success look like to the CRTC? I don't buy that you care about local news, because it's all about money. If the newsrooms aren't at the trough, they disappear, as we've seen in every province of this country.

What does success look like to the CRTC?

[Vicky Eatrides]

I can start and then turn things over to Scott, who's overseeing the work on the Online News Act.

Success would be fulfilling the role we've been given as a tribunal, which is to ensure the administration of the Online News Act. The CJC, or the Canadian Journalism Collective, has been set up to ensure that the money is distributed, and it decides to whom it goes. Ensuring that the money is distributed by the CJC and that the role is fulfilled would be success for us in terms of our role.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

You have said here for the last hour and a half that newsrooms are not really a priority. Well, you say it's a priority, but I don't see the correlation with the money being handed down to TV and radio stations, because the first cut they make is to local news. I've talked about it here.

How much money is it going to take from the government, at the end of the day, to make this successful and make your organization carry out what Canadians want? How much money will it take?

[Scott Hutton]

That's a very big question to ask. It involves a lot of speculation.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

Give us a number.

[Scott Hutton]

I don't have such a number. It's not there.

Quite frankly, money isn't the only solution. That's why we are looking at a whole bunch of different things. We've spoken often enough about conditions of licence, to ensure that those who do have licences in those markets are producing local news and are investing in it. These are two different types of conditions of the licences we have in place with them.

There is the Google money that's flowing. We have created new funds to help support businesses that produce news. Very precisely, that support is dependent upon how many reporters you hire on staff on that front. It's going to news and the people finding the news. It has been quite important in support from our end on that front.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

Who follows up when the CTV network decides not to have local news on Sundays and Mondays? Does the CRTC do that? You used to get a seven-year contract for a licence. Are there any licences anymore? I'm sure the CTV did not have that in its licence.

Radio-wise, I can tell you what is happening. I can do the morning show in Saskatoon from six to nine, and then I go off the air and I'm doing the mid-morning show in Calgary. You knew this. This is what owners are doing to shave money to stay alive in this country. A number of so-called disc jockeys or morning shows will do them and then turn around.... We're in Edmonton now. It's a quarter to the hour. I don't know what hour it is, but I have the mid-morning show from nine to noon.

I don't see the CRTC following up with certain broadcasters in this country about what I just talked about—local news and radio stations that are doing programming like what I just mentioned. Years ago, we were all scared of the CRTC. Now nobody gives a damn about you guys—I'm going to be honest—because you don't follow up.

[Scott Hutton]

You've shifted from television to radio on that front.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

Yes. I did both.

[Scott Hutton]

I think we've had many discussions over the years about television. We do follow up. There have been precise rules in place to support local news on television stations. Yes, CTV does have rules or regulations applied to it in that instance.

With respect to radio, for decades radio had been producing local news and putting it on air. Therefore, regulation was not needed on that front.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

It is now.

[Scott Hutton]

We are looking at various proceedings right now and how we can help. One of the radio-related items is to have a fund that, for the first time, supports news on commercial radio and on markets across the country in more rural areas. That was identified as an area of prime concern at our hearings.

We do care, and we have been putting in place measures to help.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

It doesn't do anybody any good. This is broadcast news, because it's not local.