Canadian Heritage Committee on June 2nd, 2026

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

What I'm trying to drill down into here.... I appreciate what you're saying. The funding would come under Canadian Heritage, which now is very much, as the name would suggest, focused on creating a sense of Canadian identity and conveying our values as a nation.

You made a list of some things that were not just these, but then, what are we, and what's being reflected in the art form that you're presenting?

[S.E. Grummett]

Specifically, I'm going to get into the nitty-gritty of the performance style we use.

Often, when we're touring in Europe, we'll see this style of clown that is very European, or we'll see a style that is a very LA clown, which is very ironic and sarcastic. To me, there's this beauty of Canadian performance, at least in the realms that I play in, that is a lot more open-hearted and has a lot more care for the audience without being saccharine and without being hand-holdy.

It comes back to the artistic lineage of the clown practice here in Canada. It came from a practitioner named Richard Pochinko, who studied the European clown style and then brought it back and worked.... He was a bit more of a 1970s hippie. The Canadian clown scene has grown up out of that practice, and it presents something really different from what you see, let's say, at the Edinburgh Fringe and other clown performances, which tend to be a lot more ironic. Our work is dark, but it's not hopeless. I think there is a hope that we try to bring.

My clown teacher would often say, “What is the gift for the audience? What is the gift you're giving them?” In the work we make, for us, it's giving our audiences—who tend to be a lot of younger, poorer, queer folks—a sense of catharsis and a sense of feeling that they're not alone. Particularly in the work we make and in the work that a lot of the other folks here make, we're aiming for things that you could only create there in that moment that's interactive with the audience. We're all here in a special shared space, as “hippie woo-woo” as that sounds.

That's the thing that is so needed right now, and we're seeing that from audiences. There's a show called Every Brilliant Thing that's on Broadway right now that is just completely selling out, and I think it is because it is interactive. It is asking something of the audience, which is to be a participant in the art.

That is something we do really well here, and it doesn't often get an opportunity to be seen internationally.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

That was great. Thank you.

These comments about participatory art forms were also made by Christina Santiago Keenan.

What does that participation look like in your show?

[S.E. Grummett]

For us, we build audience participation moments from a place of consent. I often use the phrase “being a good clown” or “being a good host” and make sure that folks feel included. My first solo show was getting audience members to yell things out. We play games together. In a more recent show, we were in the audience, crawling through them.

The thing we're going for is, what can audiences not get at home on their screens? That's something we try to present as an alternative. I've done a show in which we're all dressed up as houses, roaming around through the public space. People get to interact and play with us, and that is always very interesting. It's something very unique in terms of what your day-to-day, going on Netflix or something like that might look like.

I hope that answers your question.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I think so, yes.

I think that's basically my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

You had 10 seconds.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

That's not enough to ask my question.

I'll come back.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Mr. Al Soud, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all for being with us today.

Ms. Santiago Keenan and Mr. Myette, not long ago I was at the Mississauga art gallery for the media launch of Polish Day. It's an annual festival that happens in my beautiful riding of Mississauga Centre, at Celebration Square, and it really celebrates Polish Canadian heritage.

The gallery itself isn't all that big, but it fulfills a variety of functions, in part because it has to in order to stay financially viable. As you all know well, this is increasingly a reality for public arts venues.

Secret City Studio partners with major companies like Netflix and Nintendo while operating in cultural spaces across Toronto, Vancouver and Edmonton. You're also very unique in our arts ecosystem in that you blend commercial entertainment and immersive storytelling in public cultural spaces.

The Marigold Cultural Centre serves as a theatre, a gallery, a sports hall of fame and an educational space all under one roof.

I'd like to offer you both the opportunity to speak to either the increasing need to rely on commercial partnerships or on multi-use business models to stay commercially viable.

[Christina Santiago Keenan]

One thing I'm very proud of about Secret City is that for the last 10 years we have not had to pay rent—touch wood. Because we have taken shared risks with our partners, we've been able to find the win-wins. At Casa Loma, at nighttime, nobody's walking through the towers. I wonder what's happening here at nighttime.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Christina Santiago Keenan]

You can activate these spaces and bring new people to places they wouldn't have otherwise. It's really crucial for our business to partner with these venues.

In terms of the more commercial studios, it's really helpful to reach audiences who think that escape rooms or immersive theatre are these fringe things. They're actually quite accessible, and what makes them accessible is the stories that people can connect to.

[André Myette]

For us, it's mostly trying to leverage our own community and people who support the arts in going through sponsorships for shows. That helps significantly, as does trying to find ways to make extra money or save some where we can through partnerships, with some of the alcohol we sell in our bar or things to that effect.

Partnering with community groups is certainly something that I'm very passionate about, because I came to this theatre from being part of a community theatre group. Leveraging that, our community and the wonderful patrons that we have, as well as a membership that we offer, has been very helpful.

As far as the commercial side of things goes, yes, basically reaching out and trying to find help with funding some of those shows through sponsorships has helped a lot with some of the more expensive shows. As a not-for-profit, we generally try not to make very much profit or lose money, but we also want to try to keep it as affordable as possible so the tickets can be affordable for the community. That's what we try our best to do. Thankfully there are many local businesses that help. We could use more, but you could always use more. That helps a lot.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Fantastic.

Thank you both.

Mr. Bunce, you have an incredibly rich depth of experience in the realities of accessing venues, funding and touring infrastructure. In an interview with CTV, you noted, “Original live music is actually one of Canada's biggest cultural exports, and without these vital spaces to incubate original music, we might see this...die out.” You also said, “You can't get all the way up to the Rogers Stadium without going along all the steps [on] the ladder.”

I'd like to offer you the opportunity to expand on that, as well as on your report in partnership with U of T.

[Jonathan Bunce]

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Yes, the venue ladder is a really interesting concept, in that we often see more media visibility for the top end of the venue ladder—Rogers Stadium, Rogers Centre and other places named after telecoms. The major arenas, which are really important, are the end goal for some, but not all, artists. Not all artists are going to rise up the venue ladder.

At Wavelength, we specialize in the lower rungs of the ladder, mostly the small or middle venues that have a capacity of 500 and under. These are the spaces in which you've seen, historically, music scenes develop—the small stages that might be your neighbourhood café, the neighbourhood bar or a small to mid-sized concert theatre. These spaces were the kinds of places that, traditionally, if you were an emerging band, a garage band, you could book at no cost. That element has really gone away.

In the music scene that I came up in, during the 1990s and into the 2000s, the accessibility of these spaces for emerging artists was key to unbridled creativity in the music scene. If you could get a Tuesday night at a bar like Sneaky Dee's in Toronto, you could put on a show with three other bands; you could charge a modest ticket price, and your friends would come. That's how scenes developed across all genres.

Avril Lavigne, The Weeknd and Drake all started out in these small rooms, and then some of them climbed the venue ladder. Other artists who put out music that is just as amazing might reach a lower level on the ladder, but that's still important.

Now, postpandemic, we've seen that these spaces, even these small venues, can no longer afford to allow emerging artists or presenters to book space at no cost. Now we're seeing facility fees. As those cost barriers increase, ticket prices get passed on to the consumer—that's why you see rising ticket prices—and of course, that starts to create a negative feedback loop in which people go out less. You then see less viability and less support for these concerts, especially when, at the higher end of the venue ladder, you see more corporate consolidation going on. When there is one multinational promoter that also owns one of the biggest ticketing companies in the world, that's what causes ticket prices for the bigger concerts to increase; that eats up people's entertainment dollars, and they have less money to go out to support smaller artists.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

That was really valuable testimony. I think it gets right to the heart of why we even called for this study. It also took me back to my days working at the El Mocambo in Toronto when I was in journalism school.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I, too, want to thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee this morning to share their experiences, their expertise, their recommendations and, in some cases, their grievances.

I'm going to speak with you, Mr. Messier, from RIDEAU, who is joining us online today.

You talked about your organization, but I want to go into a bit more detail about the members you represent, because they are very diverse. There aren't just members in Quebec, and all kinds of members are part of the RIDEAU association: cultural centres, performance spaces and a large number of small and medium-sized festivals.

However, I believe there's a recurring issue for many of your members who stage performances. You mentioned it in your opening remarks: It's the maintenance of the buildings. Even though this study is still in its early stages, we've already heard about this situation, which poses a major problem for many performing arts presenters and theatre companies, among others, who have to manage buildings that are often dilapidated—and for which there is simply not much support for restoration and maintenance. Often, as you said, they have to cut back on their programming budget.

I'd like us to discuss this further. Tell me about what this means in terms of problems and challenges for troupes and organizations that are already forced to manage an extremely tight budget.

[Frédéric Messier]

Yes, as you said, this is becoming a very serious concern, because, as you are no doubt aware, maintenance costs and fixed costs in general have risen significantly for owners, and even, in some cases, for tenants of performance spaces.

There is also an economic factor: Demands and needs are increasing in an economic context where public funding is gradually being scaled back, both at the federal and provincial levels, as we can also see.

We therefore find ourselves in situations where we are forced to redirect funds normally earmarked for our mission—funds that should be used to pay artist fees, cover travel and accommodations for professional technicians, welcome audience members in a highly professional manner or fund promotional activities. We sometimes have to use these funds to cover the costs of maintaining and upkeeping assets and equipment, for which support is becoming increasingly scarce and difficult to obtain.

So that is certainly a problem.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

That means that a producer might decide to choose one production over another because that production will involve lower costs and, for example, fewer actors on stage, fewer technicians and fewer staff members to pay. So it's not just this organization that will be affected; in a way, it will ultimately affect the entire cultural sector.

[Frédéric Messier]

Yes. As you say, we mainly see that this can impact the producer's decision regarding the structure of their show. However, what we see most of all is that shows are touring the regions less frequently. Productions won't necessarily be smaller, but they'll tour less, because the cost of moving them has become too high.

In Quebec's case, we therefore have a large network of performance spaces covering the entire province, but shows are no longer reaching its outlying areas as well as they used to. This is a really serious concern for us. We are documenting it more and more, because this is a trend that is accelerating and significant.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You see this when you are out in the regions. We often see productions that are very successful in major urban centres, but when they are presented in the regions, they have a smaller cast to be more flexible, as you say. Deep down, we know very well that it's underfunding that forces the troupes to do this.

Let's go back to the issue of performance spaces. In your recommendations, you refer to performing arts presenters as essential links and partners.

That leads me to believe that this disengagement or lack of recognition on the part of the federal government toward performing arts presenters will, in the long run, result in disengagement or disinterest among your members. At some point, some may decide they're fed up with being forced to cut back and make sacrifices they never should have had to make before, and that they'd rather do something else. We see this a lot. We saw it during the pandemic as well: Technicians and actors decided to leave the profession to do something else, because it had become too difficult.

Is this also becoming a trend among performance arts presenters, who say they're going to do something else, or among performance space owners, who say they're ultimately going to do something else with their space?

[Frédéric Messier]

First of all, what's certain is that we're seeing fatigue build up in the teams. There are more and more sick leaves, and, generally speaking, the precarious state of mental health is a cause for concern. This stems from the fact that they don't necessarily have the resources needed to achieve their ends. So, they've had to get used to working miracles on a daily basis with the resources they have, which is exhausting and draining. We see this a lot.

Next, regarding today's topic, I would say that without strong performance spaces willing to do what it takes to champion a work, draw audiences into the space and facilitate encounters between the audience, the artist and the work, the creative funding policy certainly loses a lot of its impact. The work is funded and created, but if it has only a few performances, or even just one performance in a major urban centre, if it doesn't tour or reach audiences, we're kind of missing the mark.

There is a concept that you amplify the impact when you have a robust performance network capable of taking a production and bringing it to audiences everywhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

Mr. Waugh, you now have the floor for five minutes. Are you ready?

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

I'm ready.

May I call you “Grumms”?