Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 8th, 2025

[Marc-Olivier Ducharme]

That's right.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ducharme.

I'd like to ask Ms. Brown or Ms. McGuffin a question, based on something my colleague Mr. Généreux said at our meeting on Monday.

Let's say I'm clever with artificial intelligence engines and I ask them to generate a song using Mr. Généreux's melodious voice and drawing on the lyrics from Mr. Myles's repertoire of songs, who had a real artistic career before becoming a politician.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

He's a real artist.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Yes, he's a real artist; we are failed artists.

All joking aside, my question is still serious: If I generate this song and, by great luck, it becomes a success, can I consider this work to be mine, under the current regulations, and could I get access to the copyright that this song would generate?

I'm asking this for Mr. Généreux as well, since his voice would be heard all over the world.

[Jennifer Brown]

That's a very interesting way to look at that.

What is creation? That is kind of at the heart of what we're talking about. Creation is a human endeavour, and it takes skill and judgment.

I'm going to say that there are a lot of creators out there right now, songwriters in particular and probably artists, who use AI. They use it as a tool. However, they are still coming forward and saying, “This is my original work because I put this skill and judgment into the creation of this song.”

If you're a digital provider that's just pumping works out of a prompt, no, I don't see that as a musical work. I think that's where we're at.

[Margaret McGuffin]

I just want to add that music publishers and SOCAN are in the world of licensing. We license very small segments of songs to Instagram and to TikTok. We license interpolations, things that sound like Mr. Myles's songs, but that doesn't allow someone to write a song that sounds like his song. They have to license that. That is the world that we envision going forward. The world of licensing exists. We're in the business of licensing. We know how to do it, and this now needs to extend to the AI companies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

Your time is up, Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you for giving me a little latitude, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

There's no problem.

Mr. Généreux, do you have any questions, or did Mr. Champoux ask them all for you?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Rest assured, Madam Chair, I'll always have questions.

Mr. Rogers, do you want to respond to that?

[Patrick Rogers]

Yes. I wanted to tie a bow around that whole conversation.

It's why, at Music Canada, we talk about rules and tools. The tools are very exciting. They have the ability to make us laugh or cry. They have the ability to get us really excited about them. Unfortunately for all of us, we live in the world where we deal with the rules. That is why the licensing piece is so important. That is why the keeping it with copyright is so important.

I think as you go through this study—and this will not be the only time you talk about AI at this committee—you should do your best at each conversation to ask whether it's a conversation about the rules or about the tools.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Ducharme, like you, I'm a francophone and I come from Quebec. However, I'd like to ask the other witnesses if they share your point of view. I partly agree with what you're saying. We can't be against virtue, of course. We'd like Canada to be able to preserve its identity and creative autonomy and for artists to be able to earn income from this activity, as is currently the case.

So I'm speaking to all the other witnesses.

In your respective fields, could a model like the one proposed by Mr. Ducharme exist? If so, why not create it yourself without having to resort to government funding? In fact, the Canadian creative industry as a whole generates billions of dollars of revenue, to my knowledge. I'm just putting the idea out there.

[Patrick Rogers]

Look, this is where we come from about it, and I'll put it into political terms for everyone here: The goal of the artists in your ridings is not to appeal only to their fans in your riding. The goal, and the ability now in the digital world, is to find all the fans, all the people who like them, all around the world.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

That's absolutely true. You're so right. For example, in the case of André Gagnon, a classical music composer, his greatest fan base is in Japan, not in Quebec. Although he passed away, he remains a great star.

Obviously, we want our culture to be disseminated around the world. However, does it have to go through a model that, as Mr. Ducharme suggests, would belong to the industry and be managed by the industry?

[Patrick Rogers]

As I've said at the CRTC with regard to Bill C-11, our goal is that public policy should be building Canadian artists a launch pad. I believe there are a lot of stakeholders who'd like a bomb shelter. Bomb shelters, by definition, only serve those who are in it. The launch pad should be the goal of it.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

I'd also like answers from Ms. Brown, Ms. Wilhelm and Ms. McGuffin.

[Jennifer Brown]

I tend to agree with Mr. Rogers. We are a Canadian country with great artists who travel around the world, as you said. Everything we're doing is to make sure that we are respected on the platforms where those works are being shared. That's where I think a vibrant licensing market is what we need. These works have been taken. They've already lost the revenue from that. Let's get them compensated, and let's make sure that they're being compensated in the future, not replaced in the future.

It's not just the current artists we have who are making sure that they're making a living. We also have new, emerging Canadian creators who actually see a viable path here, who actually look at this and say, “Yes, this is a career I want to get behind because I'm not just going to have a singular audience here. I have the network and the ecosystem to grow.” I think licensing is still the answer. This is something that can happen.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Thank you.

Is it done? Am I done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

You still have 30 seconds, if you want to continue.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

I'd really like everyone to have a chance to answer my question, so go ahead.

[Kelly Wilhelm]

If I could just add to that, I think it's important to make a distinction between technology and digital technology capabilities in this sector and the AI question. In the arts and creative industries, there's been underinvestment in the management of digital cultural data for some time now. We're actually working at that disadvantage already.

Creators don't necessarily have the ability to manage their data properly and maintain that closeness and ownership over it, irrespective of AI coming into the picture. We need that infrastructure to be invested in. I definitely do agree with Monsieur Ducharme on that point and that the artists need to be able to govern that infrastructure themselves.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

Mr. Ntumba, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Bienvenu-Olivier Ntumba, Liberal, Mont-Saint-Bruno—L’Acadie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Ducharme, earlier you talked about necessary autonomy, cultural specificity and governance.

In my riding of Mont‑Saint‑Bruno—L'Acadie, there's a strong presence of artists, craftspeople and small cultural businesses. How can we ensure that cultural integration with artificial intelligence doesn't increase inequality in the industry?

I'd also like to come back to what you were explaining earlier. Can you clarify your thinking?