Evidence of meeting #14 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officers.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:25 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
I can't speak about the protesters' statements, so let me focus on the substantive policing question.
8:25 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
As I said before, there were 500 officers on whatever day that happened to be, split over three different shifts. That doesn't mean they were all available at the same time and at the different times you talked about.
Let me also say that even in those early morning hours, when there were low numbers and officers tried to effect an enforcement action or any other action, many times they were swarmed and sometimes they were overwhelmed. I can tell you explicitly of one female sergeant who had worked an 18-hour shift and went out on her own time to support frontline officers. She was almost overwhelmed at one of those four o'clock in the morning opportunities that you talked about. That is well documented by other levels of threat assessments well beyond those being authored by the Ottawa Police Service. Feel free to avail yourself of those assessments.
The fact is, sir, that it was never that simple. We saw it in Coutts, Alberta, where there were substantive resources available and operations were well planned. Within minutes of attempts to remove trucks, those forces were overwhelmed. We saw it in Windsor and in other jurisdictions. This is not something unique to Ottawa.
8:25 p.m.
Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
After February 14, when the police started to move in, there were large numbers of police there. There were nearly 1,500, maybe, but there were also many more demonstrators.
By not moving in at the right time, when you had fewer demonstrators, and by announcing in advance that you were moving in, did you not run a risk? It allowed more people to gather when police moved in, and that increased the risk, do you not think?
8:30 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Your time is up.
Mr. Sloly, can you give a brief reply?
8:30 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr. Sloly, thank you for your ongoing testimony before us. We appreciate the consideration you're giving us. I'm sure it is not always easy for you. I appreciate that, particularly when you talk about your forces and the pressures that they were under.
Earlier you talked to us about the lack of confidence that you felt at the time with the lack of action to dismantle the occupation. That frustration was shared by a lot of citizens here in Ottawa.
I'd like you to elaborate a little on the frustration we as citizens felt when we saw jerry cans of gas being delivered to the convoy, and support for the convoy being expressed from some quarters while at the same time businesses were shuttered. The Rideau Centre was shuttered. The older citizens of Ottawa felt insecure in terms of simply leaving their apartments, let alone getting to work.
That frustration was, I'm sure, something that you observed and felt was legitimate frustration.
8:30 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
Absolutely, sir. In the closing comments of my opening statement, I spoke to that.
That was a very real and live situation. I have great empathy and compassion for the people who approached me during my time in office to express their concerns and frustrations—and even stronger language. I understood that and we did our best to address that as quickly as we could.
8:30 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
That's what I'm trying to actually get to in my questioning. Could we have gotten to the situation that we eventually enjoyed more quickly had the invocation of the Emergencies Act been sooner? My question to ministers, as you might know from the transcripts, was, “What took you so long?”
Did you ever feel, as the chief of police here in Ottawa, that you wished help was on its way?
8:30 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
I did, every day.
My priority from the first 24 hours of seeing what arrived in my city was resources. My first indication of the scale of resources that we would need and the specialization and capabilities of those resources was on February 2, when I met with the public order commanders from my own organization, as well as other Ontario organizations.
When I put to them what we were going to need to safely and lawfully end this, the scale at that point was every single public order officer in Ontario and many more from outside of Ontario.
8:30 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Did you and your fellow leadership from across the province express that need to the political authorities in the jurisdiction where you worked?
8:30 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
It was expressed through the partners we had municipally, provincially and federally. No doubt, as professional as they are, they would have briefed their political channels. However, until I made the official announcement for the 1,800 that then went to the chair and the mayor and a signed letter to other two levels of government, we were working through the policing construct.
We formally engaged the other two levels of government on February 7.
8:30 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
In your 11 points that, hopefully, you will flesh out, do you make comments and recommendations with respect to a more effective and timely coordination at the political level in circumstances like this?
8:30 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
I've avoided that, sir, but you will see comments around more effective coordination certainly between police agencies and national security agencies in future events.
8:30 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Could you elaborate on that?
As an observer, I think one thing we saw was a sense of silos and lack of coordination, at least on a timely basis.
8:35 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
I think you've expressed that extremely well, sir.
8:35 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you.
For final questions, we'll go to Senator Campbell.
8:35 p.m.
Senator, British Columbia, CSG
I have just a short question.
There were reports in the media that there were ongoing negotiations, with the mayor or whomever. I understand when you say that there was no “they're”; there were numerous people all saying that they were in charge.
It struck me at the time that the police board for Ottawa stated they were not aware of any negotiations that were going on.
My question is this: Is that normal, in the Ottawa Police Service, that the police board would not be aware of the mayor carrying on negotiations?
I'm not commenting on whether they're right or wrong. I'm just trying to get my head around how this information is disseminated, so that the people who are making decisions are better able to understand what is going on.
8:35 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
If I understood your question, sir—and if not, please correct me—our municipal board is made up of three sitting councillors and a fourth civilian designated by the mayor. The mayor has the first right of refusal to sit on the board and can designate that to another councillor. In this case, Mayor Watson designated that to Councillor King.
There were three city councillors who actively participated as board members and actively participated as council members when emergency council meetings were called.
Again, I can't speak for who knew and who called whom, or when and why, but there were three elected city councillors on the board during my entire tenure during the events of the convoy.
8:35 p.m.
Senator, British Columbia, CSG
Again, there was no clear line of communication going on.
I understand that there's a clear line of communication from you to your officers, but there's no clear line of communication from your political bosses, the mayor and the police board, with regard to any ongoing negotiations.
October 6th, 2022 / 8:35 p.m.
Chief of Police (Retired), Ottawa Police Service, As an Individual
Again, I can't speak to that, sir. There may have been; there may not have been. I just can't speak to it. I'm sorry, sir.
8:35 p.m.
Senator, British Columbia, CSG
Okay. Thank you, Chief.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
8:35 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you very much to all members. Mr. Sloly had agreed to come for two hours. His two hours are up.
Mr. Sloly, we would like to thank you very much for coming to committee tonight. Thank you for your candour. I know that every committee member would also very much like to thank you for your service, both here in Canada and abroad. Thank you very much.