Evidence of meeting #17 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was emergencies.
A video is available from Parliament.
9 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you, Madame Normandin. Your time is up.
I'll go to Mr. Green.
9 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I'll go ahead and pick up from my friend from the Bloc.
You were halfway through. How long, in your assessment, would it have taken to get all the way through that in order to be operational for the plan that you had prior to the invocation?
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
Sorry, sir, can I get some clarification?
9 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
You were halfway through getting indemnified to get the tow trucks. That would seem to be the final piece after the three-week occupation. I'll put it to you, sir, that it seems like your assertion, based on how I'm interpreting it, is that if you just had a little bit more time, you could have gotten the job done without the Emergencies Act.
From a timing perspective, you said you were halfway through. Given your intended schedule on the operational plan, when would the operation have taken place?
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
It would have been the exact same time. The operation did not move forward any sooner because of the Emergencies Act.
9 p.m.
NDP
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
We would have moved forward with whatever indemnification we would have been able to get through the province. If that did not satisfy the tow providers, then we would have had to rely on our contingency of using police officers to operate tow trucks.
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
It would have taken us longer to accomplish our mission.
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
I can't say.
9 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I'm sure you were briefed on reports that the Ottawa police had a plan to displace people and then days before, they stopped the plan because of some internal dysfunction.
What's the timing of that? In your briefs.... When were you made aware that they had a plan and that they called it off in the last second?
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
I'm not sure that I'm familiar specifically with what you're referring to—with a plan that was called off in the last second.
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
There had been a plan to take positive action to deploy public order and to clear a section. There had been some discussion of that. That was dealt with at an operational level and did not proceed. That was not necessarily something I was intimately involved in.
At one point in time, on or around February 9—please don't hold me to the date because I'm going by memory—I did have a conversation with Chief Sloly over concerns that were brought forward by our team about moving forward with a public order plan that they didn't feel we were ready to move forward on.
9 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I'll share this with you. As somebody who is in opposition, I had information that was made publicly available to me through the media, like most of the public did. You've now asserted that at no point in time did the government have access to operational plans.
Is it safe to say, given the fact that this has been an ongoing occupation for three weeks and the government didn't have access to operational planning, that the invocation of the act would have been based on the information that was made publicly available to them?
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
I don't know that I can say that. I have no idea—
9 p.m.
NDP
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
I did not inform the government on any aspects of invoking the act.
9 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I guess we'll hear from others if they had, but if I take your testimony at face value, I would say that the government didn't have it at the time.
It's my assertion, and I'll put it on the record, that I still haven't necessarily concluded that all of the legal tools were exhausted. However, there's a very serious practical matter, which is that the OPS just failed to act for three weeks. We heard testimony earlier today that they were given discretion on enforcing the law, which led to lawlessness. They took the discretion, which was, in my opinion, a distinction without a difference in terms of their ability to act, their failure to act or their willingness to act.
Did you have to contemplate scenarios where you just couldn't get co-operation on the ground to get things done, much in the same way that they had to call off their own action in the weeks prior to the invocation?
9 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
I'm sorry. I'm not clear on the actual question.
9 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
The question is, can you appreciate the public's perception that it wasn't necessarily a legal threshold but a practical threshold, a failure of policing, sir, in that the Ottawa police failed to adequately plan for, execute and provide operational law and order on the ground, and that ultimately led to the invocation of the act, given that the government wasn't privy to your operational plans?
9:05 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
I think “failure” of the Ottawa police is a very harsh term—
9:05 p.m.
Commr Thomas Carrique
These types of incidents, these types of events, take methodical planning. They cannot be resolved overnight. This is one of—