Evidence of meeting #18 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.
A video is available from Parliament.
November 17th, 2022 / 8:15 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Mason, I'm going to start with you.
In your opening statement, you talked about how once the regs and the order came into force you did a bit of legal compliance to understand how it could be done. Can you provide us with an overview as to what was your understanding and what mechanism you put in place to comply with the regulations and the order?
8:15 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
When the order was announced, it was described what they were going to do, but we didn't have the actual order in our hands, so we started formulating a number of questions. Then, when saw the actual order, we continued to update those questions, because we wanted to understand a number of implementation issues.
It's normal to have guidance, and there was no guidance that came out with this order, so we generated a number of questions asking these questions of compliance, including scope, application and who would be treated as a designated person. We were helping to achieve compliance for our members by getting clarification from Finance.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Then, once you had a sense of what to do and you had to comply, who provided you with the list of individuals or entities to consider the freezing of accounts?
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Did you ever receive any lists from any officials from Finance Canada?
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
At the end of the day, once you received the list from the RCMP, what process did you follow to determine whether or not to freeze those accounts?
8:20 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
First we received confirmation of whether or not we should treat these individuals as designated persons. RCMP confirmed they should be treated as designated persons. Once that was confirmed, we used those names to match against accounts within our members' organizations, and if there was a clear match, then we froze the account, as obligated to do under the order.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Is it accurate for me to say that the final decision as to whether or not to freeze an account was a decision of the banks?
8:20 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
The decision to freeze an account was on the RCMP, who said that this was a designated person. Once identified, if we had that account, the order required us to freeze it.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
But you had to do the due diligence in order to determine whether that account existed and it matched the designated person or entity.
8:20 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
That's correct. It's similar to how censures work.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Let me ask quickly, if it did not match, then you did not freeze those accounts?
8:20 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
That is correct.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Hatch, I was going to ask you the same questions.
Where did the credit unions get the list of designated individuals and entities?
8:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
From the RCMP.
8:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
We did not.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
What process did you follow to determine whether to freeze the account or not?
8:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
It was very similar to what my colleague at CBA just described. We shared the list provided to us by the RCMP through a secure channel that only members of our organization were able to access. They then had a legal obligation under the emergency order to check against that list to see if indeed any of those individuals held accounts at their respective credit unions, in which case they were obligated to freeze those accounts.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Once again, this is a similar question. If the information did not match, then you or the credit union made the decision not to freeze those accounts?
8:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
Correct.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
So the decision at the end of the day was by the credit unions to determine whether those designated entities or individuals met the requirements from your end or not...?
8:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
No. If I understand your question correctly, if it was found that one of the individuals on the list was a member of credit union X, that credit union was legally obligated to freeze that account. There was no discretion.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
But you had to do the due diligence to make sure the name of the individual entity provided and your client were the same...?