Evidence of meeting #18 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joint Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Josée Harrison
Kim Wilford  General Counsel, GoFundMe
Peter Harder  Senator, Ontario, PSG
Joint Chair  Hon. Gwen Boniface (Senator, Ontario, ISG)
Dennis Glen Patterson  Senator, Nunavut, CSG
Jacob Wells  Co-Founder, GiveSendGo
Angelina Mason  General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
Michael Hatch  Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association

7:45 p.m.

Jacob Wells Co-Founder, GiveSendGo

I do want to apologize. I had a personal family emergency this afternoon that ended up getting delayed and pushed over later. That resulted in my being late. I tried to get here as soon as I could. I understand the timing and the value of your time.

I'm willing to accommodate whatever you guys need. I don't need to do an opening statement. I appreciate the invitation that we were given. I hopped in as soon as I could, just to show face and to let you know that we value this committee and what you're doing, and, the information that you're looking for, we're welcome to provide.

7:45 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

I do appreciate and will accept that. Thank you for making that time. I hope, obviously, on behalf of the committee, that whatever family emergency you were dealing with comes to a positive resolution.

I will state, however, that with 10 minutes left in this committee, it's probably not appropriate to deal with your intervention at this time. I would ask that you make yourself available to our clerks so they can reschedule you to come back and provide testimony at an appropriate time.

I think the testimony we had from GoFundMe was significant. It provided some really good analysis and perspective, but, of course, you're the missing piece of that testimony.

Mr. Virani, the floor is yours.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I'm just going to put out a suggestion and we'll see what the will of the committee is. Perhaps he could join the panel for the second half of this meeting, so we'd have three witnesses for that panel instead of two.

7:50 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

Just taking a brief note here, I don't believe we have consensus around the table. I understand the rationale of that and I would have been amenable to it, but it seems there's not agreement there.

With that being said, we will at this—

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, can we put it to a vote?

7:50 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

We can if you'd like to.

A vote has been called on adding Mr. Wells to the next section of the meeting. We will proceed with the vote.

Ms. Wilford and Mr. Wells, we're going to do a little procedural accounting here and then we'll get right back to you on how we're going to move forward.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 3)

At this time, I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Wilford, I want to thank you for standing in for the full committee.

Mr. Wells, I want to thank you as well, sir, for making yourself available at least to provide an explanation to the committee. It's certainly more information than we had based on the original emails.

Before I suspend the meeting, I do see Mr. Brock.

7:50 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Mr. Chair, may I make a suggestion that in advance of Mr. Wells' next appearance before this committee, he file his opening statement so that we can expeditiously deal with his testimony in the one and a half hour time slot?

7:50 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

Yes. I do believe that's already part of our process, although it doesn't always happen.

Mr. Wells, the request has been made to you, sir, that at the appropriate time when you're invited back to committee you provide that to the committee in writing. I believe it's within 72 hours of the actual meeting. That allows us to have it translated, as we're bilingual here. If you could provide it in advance, we could get right into the business when you return.

At this point, Ms. Wilford and Mr. Wells, that will conclude your part of the meeting.

I will suspend the meeting for eight minutes.

8 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

I'd like to call this meeting back to order.

For the second panel this evening, we have with us, from the Canadian Bankers Association, Angelina Mason, general counsel and vice-president. From the Canadian Credit Union Association, we have Mr. Michael Hatch, vice-president of government relations.

Witnesses should be aware that interpretation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of their screen.

I'd like to welcome both of you. You'll have five minutes for your interventions.

I always like to give our guests a disclaimer—a caveat. Once we get into our rounds of questioning, you may, from time to time, have a member of the committee intervene and interrupt you to take back their time and move on to the next question. Please don't consider that to be personal or rude in any way. They have very limited time to ask their questions in order to get their answers. Please respect the fact that, when they call back their time, it's not a personal thing.

I will begin with Ms. Angelina Mason.

You have five minutes. The floor is yours.

8:05 p.m.

Angelina Mason General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association

Thank you.

Good evening, and thank you for inviting the Canadian Bankers Association to appear today and participate in the committee's study of the invocation of the Emergencies Act and related measures.

My name is Angelina Mason and I am the general counsel and vice-president of the CBA.

The CBA is the voice of more than 60 domestic and foreign banks that help drive Canada's economic growth and prosperity. The CBA advocates for public policies that contribute to a sound, thriving banking system, in order to ensure Canadians can succeed in their financial goals.

On February 15, 2022, the Government of Canada invoked the Emergencies Act and made associated emergency measures regulations, and an emergency economic measures order. All financial service providers, including banks, that were covered by the order became legally obligated to implement the measures, as stipulated by the government in the order.

Banks took great care to fully understand their obligations and ensure they limited the order's applications to activities that fell squarely within their intended scope. The government indicated that the measures were intended to be temporary and focused only on a narrow group of individuals and entities involved in specific activities covered by the order. The vast majority of customers were not impacted by these measures.

Upon receipt of information from the RCMP regarding individuals and entities engaged in conduct or activities prohibited under the regulations, banks acted in accordance with their legal requirements under the order. We can confirm that banks also acted quickly to unfreeze accounts once the RCMP notified financial service providers when it believed that individuals and entities previously identified were no longer engaged in conduct or activities prohibited under the regulations.

While most of these accounts have been unfrozen, it is important to remember that some may still be frozen to comply with court orders or proceedings unrelated to the invocation of the Emergencies Act.

On February 23, 2022, the government revoked the regulations and order, and the associated legal obligation of banks and other financial service providers ceased.

In closing, I will note that the Public Order Emergency Commission contacted the CBA during the investigation phase of its work. To support the commission in its mandate, the CBA provided an overview of how the banking industry responded to the emergency economic measures order, and the role the CBA played in this process. The CBA co-operated fully with the commission's council, including participating in a formal interview, providing an institutional report, and producing requested documentation.

We anticipate relevant information will be shared by the commission's counsel as part of the overview reports to be introduced during the public hearing.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to your questions.

8:05 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Michael Hatch.

Sir, the floor is yours for five minutes.

November 17th, 2022 / 8:05 p.m.

Michael Hatch Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, as well, members of the committee, for the invitation to speak with you today.

My name is Michael Hatch, and I'm a vice-president with the Canadian Credit Union Association. I worked very closely with the Department of Finance in the days in February that are now the subject of this committee's work.

The CCUA represents 211 credit unions and caisses populaires outside of the province of Quebec. Credit unions contribute nearly $7 billion to Canada’s economy by providing deposit, loan and wealth management services to 5.9 million Canadians. Collectively, credit unions employ nearly 30,000 people and manage $290 billion in system assets.

Credit unions are co-operatives, as you know. In other words, the people who bank with us are the same people who own credit unions. Being accountable to our member-owners, as opposed to shareholders, results in customer service that is second to none. We consistently rank at the very top of surveys of customer satisfaction for financial services.

For members of this committee representing rural areas, it's also important to note that for almost 400 communities across Canada, credit unions are the only providers of financial services to households and businesses.

As I mentioned, CCUA worked closely with Finance officials and the RCMP earlier this year as Emergencies Act measures were rolled out. We’d like to thank once again on the record the minister and her team for keeping in regular contact with us in the heat of the crisis. We're particularly grateful to senior Finance Canada officials who, on short notice, provided an in-depth briefing to our members on the financial components of the emergency orders, attended by over 600 credit union representatives from across Canada.

We do have some constructive feedback to provide on some other elements of the process if I may, Mr. Chair.

In the early days of the crisis there was the impression, not uncommon in our dealings with the federal government, that the large six banks—with respect to my colleague from the CBA, of course—were consulted or informed days before credit unions and other financial institutions. Credit unions represent almost half the financial sector in some provinces, millions of Canadian consumers and tens of thousands of small businesses. We need to be at the table in discussions with Ottawa at the same level as the federally regulated banks in all matters that directly impact our operations and our members, particularly in times of crisis such as this.

When the measures were first announced, it was very unclear to whom the financial sanctions applied. Eventually, it became clear that they were aimed at a very small list of individuals and entities. However, in the early days, there was a degree of panic among some Canadians that their accounts may be frozen due to things like small donations to the convoy. In those important days, the government was less than clear about the intended targets of financial measures under the emergency orders.

Many of our members expressed this concern, and many Canadians made significant cash withdrawals from credit unions as a result, sometimes in the hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars. While these withdrawals did not cause liquidity issues in our sector, many credit union staff of course had to manage very unhappy members and customers. Better and much clearer communications from the government from day one could have mitigated this.

One credit union leader wrote in the heat of the crisis, “We had a tremendous amount of members very seriously concerned regarding the government’s ability to seize”—and freeze—“accounts; it brought forward a large sense of mistrust with the government that they could just seize individuals’ accounts.”

The government also granted a significant level of discretion to financial institutions regarding which accounts to freeze. This further contributed to confusion, and to possibly an uneven application of the financial components of the measures across the country. Many would have appreciated further guidance from the government on precisely which accounts should be frozen.

In the end, across our sector a very small number of credit union accounts were frozen, and for a short period of time. Our members froze a total of ten accounts with a total value of less than half a million dollars, an insignificant number given the stress that the measures put on the sector.

Our main message to the government and this committee is that credit unions need to be at the same table at the same time as the large banks whenever the federal government is enacting policy through the financial system. Our financial sector consists of much more than six institutions, and there continues to be frustration among credit unions that this requires such frequent repetition.

We hope this feedback is helpful to the government and the committee, and I'm happy to take your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

8:10 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

Thank you.

We will now proceed to a round of questions, beginning with Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes, sir, The floor is yours.

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

As we've heard, and as we know, the Emergencies Act regulations included the arbitrary freezing of individual and business bank accounts. Before acting to implement the government's Emergencies Act, did any of you seek any outside legal opinion that what the government was doing was lawful, yes or no?

Mr. Hatch.

8:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Ms. Mason.

8:10 p.m.

General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

If not, why didn't you seek an outside legal opinion?

8:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association

Michael Hatch

Go ahead, Angelina. I can go after you if that's okay.

8:10 p.m.

General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association

Angelina Mason

I'm happy to take that one.

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Sure. I have limited time, and I'll cut you off if you're too long.

8:10 p.m.

General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association

Angelina Mason

Okay.

The scope of the Emergencies Act was that it was designed for a state of emergency. One was declared by the government. Once that occurred, then the obligation became to enforce that law. We had obligations to fulfill. We were well aware that the Emergencies Act as it was created would have a post-act review that would assure whether or not any of those powers has been exercised—

8:15 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

In other words, you trusted that what the government was doing was legal.

Normally, generally, bank accounts are frozen as a result of a court order. There was no order this time, just the Emergencies Act regulations. Again, this was all unprecedented, incredibly unprecedented.

Would you not have felt that it was prudent to seek outside legal counsel before enacting these unprecedented measures, especially given that they had, at the very least, the appearance of being politically motivated?

8:15 p.m.

Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association

Michael Hatch

I would say that in the heat of the crisis, it was not our role to determine the legality of the government's invocation of the act, which, in our view at the time, was a sound legal application of an existing statute. It wasn't our role to question whether that was right or wrong. Our role, as a trade association serving our members, was to act as a conduit between the government, Finance, and our 200-plus credit unions out there in the country, who were, at the time, scrambling for information.

8:15 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

That's right. They were scrambling just as your customers were scrambling.

Are you aware of any specific written directives being provided to any financial institution by any government minister with respect to the implementation of the Emergencies Act?

Ms. Mason.