Declaration of Emergency Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

For the general information of the committee, I just want to reference the work plan that was submitted to us by the analysts. It does provide a framework that is reflective of our conversations, so I don't want to negate that. I just want to put that out there. I appreciate them for that work.

Mr. Motz, have you concluded your comments?

Ms. Bendayan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is my understanding that officials from justice, the RCMP and CSIS have confirmed and relayed their availability, and perhaps it was to the estimable clerk Cardegna, but that is my understanding. I think that was also reflected in the work plan.

I would like at this time to move a motion. I move that the committee invite the Department of Justice, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to appear at the committee next week, and I believe the date is May 10.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

We have a motion that has been put on the floor. That being said, we still have a speakers list of Mr. Brock, and now I see Senator White as well.

Ms. Bendayan, does that conclude your remarks or do you want to speak to that in any way?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I would just clarify that as usual and given that these will be our witnesses, I would add to the motion or simply note that they should come for a period of three hours.

That does conclude my comments. I would just refer committee members back to our lengthy discussion about the necessity of these witnesses. I don't think there is any merit in returning to the arguments made at that time.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you.

We'll have Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To my colleague Ms. Bendayan's remarks, I wanted clarity as to which groups we were looking at, so through the clerk responding to Senator Boniface and Ms. Bendayan's clarification, that answered that question.

I have some serious concerns about that particular group. That is a very heavy group. The RCMP, in my view, should be looking at a block of an hour and a half or possibly all three hours. The RCMP is intertwined throughout the invocation of the act, the execution of the act and the consequences that flowed from that act.

To do this committee justice, to ensure that all of our questions are responded to appropriately, that would be my suggestion, and I would be seeking an amendment to Ms. Bendayan's motion along those lines.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Respectfully, Mr. Brock, can you please articulate what those lines exactly are?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That if the RCMP agrees to attend next week, officials from the RCMP be the only witnesses to appear for a full three hours.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

We have a speakers list including Senator White. We'll follow up with Mr. Virani, and then we'll go to Mr. Fortin.

Senator White, the floor is yours.

[Vernon White]

Thank you very much.

Respectfully, my perspective on the RCMP is that having the RCMP without CSIS at the same time will find us wavering on responses that we will be trying to pursue. If we're going to do this, I would like to see us with both those agencies at the same time. For the full three hours, I'm fine with that.

The second piece is that I'm more concerned about the who, not the what organization. I don't want to see an assistant commissioner or a chief superintendent floating in here. The commissioner, the deputy commissioner responsible for federal services.... I want to see high-level officials. I don't think it's fair to the witnesses that they are unable to necessarily respond to some of the questions that we're going to ask. I don't want to be bringing them back a third and fourth time because we had the wrong people.

It's great to invite them, but I think we should be very clear on the level we expect to see as well, Mr. Chair.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Procedurally, just so I'm clear, because there are no friendly amendments, are you moving a—

[Vernon White]

Honestly, I would like to suggest, and it can be formal if you wish, my perspective is that to have the RCMP without CSIS in relation to this, we will miss pieces. I don't want to find us missing pieces. That's all. For me, the full three hours, we will eat it up with both of them and I think it will be helpful to all of us to have both here answering questions.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

In procedural fairness, Mr. Brock, are you okay with withdrawing your amendment?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm okay withdrawing my amendment as it relates to the RCMP's appearing as the only witness for three hours, in light of Senator White's comments.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Just so that it's clear, Madam Clerk, does it require us to have an amendment with specificity to ensure that it's the commissioner's and—

[Vernon White]

My perspective is that the clerk needs to make it very clear that the witnesses presented are at the highest level—the deputy commissioner, commissioner, CSIS director, deputy director— not finding us—

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Hence, my question to the clerk was does that require an amendment?

So there is now an amendment on the floor moved by Senator White, as he's just expressed. Do we have any dissenting voices to that amendment?

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to make an informal suggestion.

I understand Senator White's concern. I had exactly that same concern.

What we could perhaps do, when calling witnesses, is simply to indicate in the notice that the person who would be coming here to represent the RCMP should first have the authorizations required to answer all our questions and to produce the documents we might ask for.

I think it would be possible for the motion to include the fact that the person would have to be authorized to answer questions and produce the documents.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I believe I was on your speaking list, Mr. Chair?

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

You were certainly on the speakers list, and I would state my apologies.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

It's okay. I'm being patient here, but Ms. Bendayan actually jokingly said I should grab my earlier piece of paper.

This is the original thing we talked about three weeks ago and these are my annotations where we grouped these groups intentionally and deliberately. Then I read them very slowly for the clerk so that these could be recorded. Ergo, lo and behold, they appear in the work plan. So the notion that we're revisiting instructions we've already given to the fine people assisting us on this committee is, I think, probably frustrating for them but they're too polite to say so, and I think frustrating for me, at least, because we've already decided this.

The groupings you have on the sheet, independent of the fact that the dates have been inverted on one or two of them, are such that we've already agreed to them. I have no problem with what Mr. White and what I think what Monsieur Fortin are saying about ensuring that these are high enough calibre individuals to provide responses and to take things under advisement or undertake to provide answers, etc. But the notion of revisiting the groupings is probably inefficient—and I'm being polite in my choice of language there. I think we should just stick with what we've already decided. We can play with who arrives on which date, perhaps, but let's stick with the groupings with the proviso that Senator White has suggested, that we don't have low-level officials from various groupings, but have the most senior person possible.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you for providing that direction. I will state that I was referencing the blues and what was actually recorded in the blues as a result of our discussion, which led to this conversation's being opened up. So while your notes are good, they're certainly not the blues, and I do appreciate that.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

They're in blue pen.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Fair enough.

We're going to go to Mr. Motz and then back to Senator White.