Declaration of Emergency Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

That's very helpful, and they were fine questions indeed, Senator Harder.

We're going to continue.

With that, we will go back to the top of the round, which is the Conservative Party.

Mr. Motz, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for hanging in with us.

Ms. Jacques, you've had a chance to recoup, and I'd like to ask you some more questions, please.

In the first round, you indicated, to some of the questions I asked, that you couldn't answer given lawyer-client privilege. I take it to mean that you were getting advice and you were considered the client. Would that be accurate?

[Isabelle Jacques]

Yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

With your background, you'd know that in Canadian law the client can waive lawyer-client privilege. Are you willing to waive that privilege?

[Isabelle Jacques]

No, I'm not, and I'm not in a position to do so. It would have to be an appropriate person, and I believe that would have to come from the Clerk.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. Thank you for that perspective.

Senator Harder and others—and Senator Boniface—asked some questions about the sequencing and when you knew and what you did about it. That's been helpful to give some perspective on timing.

However, Ms. Jacques, two times so far in your testimony today, you were given specifics about what your goals were. You said you had basically two goals for the account freezing: one was to stop funding of what became an illegal blockade or illegal protest after the Emergencies Act was enacted; and then two was to dissuade people from donating.

I find your use of “dissuade” to be an interesting choice of words. It could mean to intimidate, to ensure that people didn't continue to fund. At any time was it your intention to intimidate Canadians from donating?

[Isabelle Jacques]

No, absolutely not. It was dissuading people from staying on the Hill. The intent was to ensure that there would be no funding of illegal activities, and certainly to ensure that people would go back home and stop the illegal activities that were ongoing on the Hill.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. The illegal also became donations. That was also considered.

[Isabelle Jacques]

No, the illegal activities were—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

In retrospect, would the intimidation that Canadians felt be considered an intended action, or was that an oversight? Canadians did feel intimidated by the Emergencies Act and some of the economic measures order.

[Isabelle Jacques]

It's hard for me to speak to how Canadians felt. I know there are a lot of Canadians who felt relief that measures were put in place to help the situation, which was untenable—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I can tell you that many Canadians have lost trust in government, and I can tell you that many Canadians have lost trust in the financial institutions. I can tell you directly that during the invocation of the Emergencies Act, a number of banks in my riding had to close their doors on some days because of the run on the banks. They had to shut their doors and wouldn't let anybody else in because everybody was trying to close their account.

I met with the advanced life underwriters yesterday. A group of them had a reception here, and I talked to a number of them who said that we would be shocked at the tens of millions of dollars that have left the banking system and have gone to them because people no longer trust the banks. The banks are left to wear the actions of the government here, and I find it rather disturbing that this is what's happened.

Were you at all aware or even attuned to the fact that the actions of the Emergencies Act had these unintended consequences?

[Isabelle Jacques]

I was made aware in one circumstance that people took their money out because they were concerned that because they gave $10 or $20, their bank account would be frozen.

One—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I will tell you that yesterday my office received a phone call from a—

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, could the witness perhaps be allowed to answer the questions? This is the second time Mr. Motz has interrupted her.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

It's my time, and I'd like to ask the last question. I have limited time.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

It is his time, and he can redirect his—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Ms. Jacques, I will tell you that yesterday my office received a phone call from an elderly gentleman who we had helped deal with some pension issues. He and his wife have closed their bank accounts and have made it very clear to me that they have closed their bank accounts and they're pulling every investment dollar they had in a chartered bank because they do not trust this government and they do not trust the banking institutions any longer. Those are the unintended consequences of the actions of this government.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

We'll take that to be a concluding comment and not necessarily a question.

We will go now to Mr. Naqvi, who has five minutes.

Mr. Naqvi, the floor is yours.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I can tell you that what I think Canadians were feeling intimidated by was the illegal activities that were taking place by way of the occupation in Ottawa and the blockades that were happening around the country.

I am going to direct my question to both Ms. Jacques and Mr. MacKillop. I just want a few things clarified so that I can understand, just as I am sure Canadians want to understand what we are talking about.

Is it my clear understanding that the orders and the regulations under the Emergencies Act that we are discussing right now did not give the Department of Finance or the Government of Canada any power to freeze any bank accounts?

[Isabelle Jacques]

That is accurate.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. MacKillop, I'll ask you the same question. Did the order or regulations we are discussing right now not give FINTRAC any powers to freeze any bank accounts?

[Barry MacKillop]

That is correct, Mr. Chair.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay.

Let me also ask you this. They also did not give any power to either of these organizations to direct banks to freeze certain bank accounts?

[Isabelle Jacques]

That is also accurate.