Evidence of meeting #9 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was laws.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:25 p.m.
Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
No problem, because I'll have other opportunities to ask questions.
7:25 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I know you're on a roll, sir. I do appreciate that. Thank you very much.
Senator Harder, the floor is yours for five minutes.
7:25 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Thank you very much, Chair.
Let me begin by associating myself with Mr. Motz's comments about your willingness to appear in front of us in person. I think that adds to the conversation. I hope you take it in the spirit in which it's offered, in that part of what we are seeking is to understand in a more interactive way than technology allows. Thank you very much.
My second point is simply to say that I welcome the charter statement. I believe it's an important contribution to our understanding. While it's a bit late, it does add to our information.
My question is a follow-up to your comment, and Senator Carignan spoke to it a bit. You said that it was observed that what was happening on the ground exceeded the capacity of other jurisdictions. I certainly share that observation. I'm interested in how you came to that conclusion, and I might have some follow-up questions on your response.
Thank you.
7:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
It was a conclusion of the government, based on all of the information they were seeing, which was being updated basically on a daily basis as we were getting debriefs from law enforcement on what was happening in Ottawa, Windsor, Coutts, Emerson, Fredericton, Halifax, etc.
7:25 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
As part of that collective observation, would you have concluded that there were police failures to prosecute the existing legal regimes in place?
June 7th, 2022 / 7:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
It's difficult for me to say whether they were failures of police, because I—
7:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
They were having a difficult.... You know, people were not leaving Ottawa. That was the conclusion, despite efforts and several plans they tried to put into effect.
With the help of the OPP, they managed to get people out of Windsor and to open that corridor. They still had difficulty keeping it open, and they needed to expend a lot of resources to make sure that they could keep it open.
7:25 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Exactly. I don't view failures as a moral failing. I simply view them as a practical conclusion from what we were observing operationally. The existing applied resources in the existing legal frameworks were inadequate, as you say, for the capacity of the other jurisdictions.
I'd like to talk to you a little bit about the consultations that you were a party to. I understand that yours is more on the legal and not the operational side. Did you consult or have ongoing discussions with, for example, the attorney general's office in Ontario?
7:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
Personally, I did not, but I know that the department did have some conversations with the city solicitor's office in Ottawa and with the Ontario attorney general—not his office but the ministry.
7:25 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Right, and were there conversations with the city as well?
7:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
Yes...with the city as well.
7:25 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
In the consultation process, we've now had public statements from the head of the RCMP and the City of Ottawa's then police chief saying that they did not ask for the invocation of the act.
I don't view that as terribly consequential. I view it as essential that they were consulted with respect to the circumstances that the government was facing and they were facing. Can you confirm that consultation, in fact, took place directly with them?
7:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
That consultation, as we were drafting orders, did take place directly with the RCMP. What we were trying to do was figure out what would be helpful to bring an end to the occupation and the blockades.
7:25 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Was there alignment, as you observed it? Are you prepared to comment that there was broad alignment that the actions the government did take were the logical conclusion to the observations that you stated with respect to exceeding the capacity of the jurisdictions?
7:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
I think what resulted was the orders we did have. You've heard from the commissioner that these were helpful in bringing an end to the occupation and blockades, so yes, they were.
7:30 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
It will be in the next round. It's something to look forward to.
7:30 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Thank you very much, Senator Harder.
I'd like to welcome Senator Campbell back to the committee. He is here with us virtually.
Senator Campbell, you have five minutes, and the floor is yours.
7:30 p.m.
Larry W. Campbell Senator, British Columbia, CSG
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
One thing I've realized about being last in the order is that they give all the good questions to the people before you.
I'm concerned about your statement that you were learning about this on TV. Perhaps you can explain to us how much consultation you had with the Ottawa police versus the RCMP. It would seem to me this was an Ottawa problem, and that, certainly, the RCMP would be necessary. However, it seems, from what you've said—and I could be wrong—there was more consultation with the Mounties than the Ottawa police. Is that correct?
7:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
I think it depends who you ask the question to.
I definitely had more conversations with the RCMP than the Ottawa police, but I believe the RCMP had more conversations with the Ottawa police than it had with me. What I participated in were regular briefings that involved the RCMP, which told us what was happening across the country, since the RCMP is in many jurisdictions. There were also conversations with the OPP and Sûreté du Québec, but I wasn't participating in those consultations and conversations, although they were reported to the group of deputies.
7:30 p.m.
Senator, British Columbia, CSG
We're always focusing on Ontario, and I know the sun shines all the time in Ontario, but on that note, Alberta and B.C., in fact, had some difficulties at the border involving firearms. There are a number of police forces there: Delta, as well as the RCMP.
Did you talk to any of those municipal government or provincial officials about what their thoughts were on this?
7:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
No, I did not, but I know the RCMP spoke to those forces.
7:30 p.m.
Senator, British Columbia, CSG
The RCMP seems to be playing a big role in this, but I've been watching these procedures and, quite frankly, if that's any indication of....
Anyway, you did not, in fact, talk to anybody except the RCMP, and they were giving you the information you needed.