Evidence of meeting #14 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was political.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I was speaking to the analyst.
You have the floor, Mr. Ste-Marie.
7:55 p.m.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC
I have a brief question for Ms. Des Rosiers.
Ladies and gentlemen, it is a pleasure having you here and listening to you.
Ms. Des Rosiers, I would like to go back to your exchange with Mr. DeCourcey regarding mixed-member proportional representation with a system of lists. You mentioned expanding the size of ridings or increasing the number of elected representatives. There are currently 338 MPs who represent 100,000 people each, on average.
If you had to decide, would you increase the number of people each MP represents to 130,000 or 150,000, or would you increase the number of MPs in Canada to 450 or 500?
7:55 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
We tried to avoid increasing the number of MPs, except in the case of constitutional issues and to address specific issues.
I think that is the right approach: it is not strictly one way or the other. We need to find a solution between the two.
7:55 p.m.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC
I would say that 100,000 people is already a huge number. It would be very difficult to represent 150,000 citizens.
7:55 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
Different models can be evaluated. There is a range between 100,000 and 150,000, and we have to know how far you want to go. We did not go into the details of determining various combinations. We had to determine whether it could be done in Canada.
7:55 p.m.
Bloc
7:55 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you.
One of the pitfalls of reform in Quebec was thinking that the number of ridings could be mathematically and automatically reduced from 125 to 75, despite the fact that Quebec MPs offer many local services in their ridings. People said it didn't make sense, that it was already difficult for them to access their MP. The issue is not so much the individual but rather the role.
We talked about accountability, simplicity and equity. We referred to the drawbacks, but didn't discuss them much. You are right, Mr. Dufour, in saying that the devil is in the details, and we saw that in Quebec. There were 26 regions, which favoured three major parties, and ideological pluralism was impossible. So there is a big challenge.
With respect to governance, under mixed-member proportional representation, do accountability and party lines still play a role? Would an MP on a list who is chosen by the party establishment say no and decide to vote according to the platform, or would they be expected to follow the party line?
I imagine that coalition governments become increasingly centrist over time if people want to take power and be those that people reach out to. Do election platforms lose their importance to some degree in that context?
What about citizens who are used to deciding who will take power? Apparatchiks will be the ones deciding who will form government. Is that not a political distortion? Should citizens not be informed and have a say in this? Personally, I think people should be able to make a decision about these drawbacks. That is why we need a referendum.
7:55 p.m.
Political scientist, Analyst and Writer, As an Individual
When I talk politics with my students, they often say the system appeals to them, but that the problem is the political parties. They argue that there should be no parties because they are appalled by their partisanship. I tell them that, unfortunately, life is not just harmony and happiness. There are also battles. I think this is a central point. Many people would essentially like to keep the current system with a few aspects of proportional representation. That seems to be the preference. Is that something that can be done? I'm not sure.
This is why I am stressing the two dynamics. Each type of voting system has its pros and cons. Can we keep the current system with a sprinkling of proportional representation? You will have to decide that. Can you come up with a credible system that wins Canadians over? Canadians do want changes, but they are attached to the current system. Once again, what strikes me in talking to my students is that they don't want political parties. People do not want to see battles. I say they are not being realistic. Politics is a battle. In any case, as MPs, you know that politics is a battle.
8 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
I would like to answer because this point was central to our discussions.
8 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
Yes, exactly.
Parties still have to be accountable. They can be punished for putting the wrong people on the list. The report recognizes that transparency is essential. Parties should be judged on the way they choose who is on their list, just as parties are judged now, for instance, on the way they elect their leader or make choices for ridings. It is not really much different. Accountability and party responsibility are always expected.
8 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you again to witnesses.
I would like to ask Ms. Des Rosiers a question.
I would like to talk about the work of the Law Commission of Canada. As I recall, you started your work on electoral reform in 2001?
8 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
Yes, that's right.
8 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
You worked for three years before the Commission released the report. How many people were involved in this work and how many members of the public participated?
8 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
Above all, the Commission wanted to get started on this issue. We held consultations across Canada. We benefited from the fact that electoral reform was of great interest at that time. Many provincial organizations were holding consultations about it. In Quebec, a process was under way, as was the case in Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick. There was also some activity in British Columbia. We were fortunate in being able to consult with organizations that had already taken action in this regard.
A method of reforming the law requires citizen involvement in the discussions, addressing these issues and holding round tables with experts to see what the outstanding questions are.
Moreover, our goal was to see if we could
commission more research to see whether we can get....
That is similar to the issue of minority representation. The evidence is not clear. Further work is needed. Our report indicates that it is not guaranteed, that we must continue looking at what the Lortie report said and not forget that the parties also have some responsibility.
The work proceeded as follows. The first stage was to determine what the consultation document would be. The second was to conduct the consultations based on this document. The consultation document was designed to focus on the values and the major issues. We wanted to know what bothered people, stability or accurate representation. Had we overlooked anything? Those were the kinds of things we considered.
8 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
So when you're presenting and in your report after the 12 years that have passed since 2004 and the report of the Law Commission, the finding that you find the most solid is that the first past the post system is really not acceptable in a modern democracy. You're not really just speaking for yourself as an expert here, but from this whole process. Was that a strong finding of a lot of the people who were presenting? It was obviously the finding of the report itself.
8 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
Well, really, I have to say that I was a neophyte at that time. I'm a law practitioner, so I think the process of going and listening to the way in which people related to the electoral system at that time was convincing to me, and convincing to the commission. It didn't start with the position that this is where we're going to end up.
I'm quite certain on that basis that there was sufficient disconnection and a sufficient problem sur la longue durée—not that the system did not work well at times and reward them, but that in la longue durée there were too many issues that came up about the lack of adequate translation of votes to seat counts. That came up over and over again.
8:05 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
We were just talking with Professor Carty, and Professor Jansen was commenting on the benefit of citizens' assembles, but has there ever been a citizens' assembly that studied the issue of first past the post that hasn't concluded they'd rather replace it?
8:05 p.m.
Professor of Political Science, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
Not that I'm aware of, no.
8:05 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Has there ever been any study in Canada by a law commission or a parliamentary committee that has said, let's look at the current system and keep it?
8:05 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
I think it's really hard to achieve that, because now we know that there are other systems that can actually respond better to....
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay.
We'll have to go to Mr. Aldag, but that's an interesting question and maybe it'll come up again.
Go ahead, Mr. Aldag.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
I wanted to go to Professor Des Rosiers. We had run out of time when you were commenting on my earlier point about the discussion of values. Is there anything further you wanted to add to that, or were you able to get out your comments?