Oh, oh!
Evidence of meeting #14 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was political.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #14 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was political.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:20 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
8:20 p.m.
Professor of Political Science, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
No, I don't think so either, but you can achieve proportionality with probably about a third of the list.
8:20 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
Yes, our recommendation was one third: one-third list, two-thirds....
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
How many more members would that increase us to at this point?
8:20 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
We were a bit more moderate to try to make sure that you don't increase all the time but make a balanced decision as to how much you want to increase the size of the riding. It was not a clear-cut of one-third more MPs; it was that some ridings could accommodate that. You have to be concerned that it does not become unmanageable, but you have to respond to the fact that you have to add members at least for the places where it's necessary, whether it's the Northwest Territories, Yukon, or Nunavut. We added members to them to have a list.
It's in the report. You can see it there.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
What you are saying is very interesting, especially regarding the way you designed the system.
You have the floor, Mr. Dubé.
8:20 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm sure he was not referring to my topic, but Mr. Deltell mentioned comments about electing a prime minister, a party or an MP. I know I have asked this part of my question, but I found Ms. Des Rosier's answer interesting. She referred to punishing a party and not an MP. That is an interesting idea because we often hear about excellent MPs who are defeated in electoral waves.
We also hear the opposite. Sometimes some very bad MPs are elected because they are in a safe seat, carried by a party that has had 70% of votes in the riding for the past 150 years. So I found Ms. Des Rosier's answer interesting and that is what we are looking for. It is an equitable vision.
My question concerns something else, however. It pertains to a comment, and I thank you for your indulgence.
Professor Jansen, my question is for you. I hope we can get into it because I know you said it was a larger topic. I alluded to the changing reality of the 21st century with social media and things like that. You said it was something that's difficult to get into. We've talked a lot about online voting and things like that, but I feel there are other consequences when we look at how the media are today. I think of 2012 when I was in France for the presidential elections. They're not allowed to talk about any exit poll results until 9 p.m., or something like that, and they're using World War I radio codes to speak to each other as party operatives to figure out which polls they're winning in. It's absurd. When we talk about youth participation and stuff—and you're bang on when you say it's hard to find that magic bullet—I feel that adapting to these realities is the kind of thing that needs to be done. Maybe we could hearing your thoughts on that, because I think it doesn't line up with online voting. I don't like to put the two together, but I feel it's in the same stratosphere.
8:20 p.m.
Professor of Political Science, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
The reality is that people, and youth included, do a lot less politically online than you might expect. Our surveys have shown that very few people follow politicians on Facebook or on Twitter or engage with them online, and those people who do intend to be politically interested. So generally, it tends to just provide another tool for the people who are already engaged.
Where I think it connects to electoral systems is to pick up a point Professor Des Rosiers made, which I think is an interesting one. It's about that one thing, breaking down that sense of our political identities being tied to where we live. One of the things that digital technology has allowed us to do is to communicate and find communities of interest that transcend where we live much more easily. I think it has played a role in changing the nature of political identity.
8:20 p.m.
Professor of Political Science, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
No, no.
8:25 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
—but that's an interesting point, because that's sort of that reality I'm trying to speak to. In 2016, I'm running in the riding of Beloeil—Chambly, but there could be a candidate who's in British Columbia from the same party as me who might do something inappropriate, or whatever, and then every candidate pays the consequences of that. That's where first past the post, as it was in 1867, is different now, because now you're paying the price not just from what's happening in your own riding or from what your leader is doing, but from the whole team.
Would you agree that we don't really take that into account? I ask because that's a bit of what I'm sensing from how people now relate to politics, which is no longer as regional as it was before.
8:25 p.m.
Professor of Political Science, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
Yes, and I don't want to downplay the importance of region. It still is profoundly important.
8:25 p.m.
Professor of Political Science, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
But I would argue, and I think the debate over electoral reform has shifted away from that. We used to talk about it mostly in terms of regions—and region and language are so profoundly important to this country—but we are increasingly talking about it in terms of the complexity of identities that we have, many of which now transcend region. I don't think digital technology causes that, but exacerbates it and provides another tool for those identities to be expressed.
8:25 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Our challenge now is to reconcile these two realities. We have to focus on the process in a broader context, bearing in mind what happens in communities. People live somewhere and that has an impact on their daily lives.
How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
8:25 p.m.
NDP
8:25 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
I would like to answer both questions.
On page 111 of the report, there is a sample ballot.
In the first part, voters are asked to choose a representative for their riding. In the second part, they have the option of choosing the party or making a list of people they would like to see on the list. This kind of ballot is not that complicated. It just has two options instead of one.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
8:25 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
It is more sophisticated.
8:25 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB
If this works the way I hope it will, I have one quick question for each of you.
I'll start with you, Professor Des Rosiers. In your time with the Law Commission and its report, you obviously studied a lot of different electoral systems. We've obviously heard from a lot of academics here about the various systems they support. Some support the current system, some support other systems, but the one thing I think everyone seems to agree on, or that seems pretty unanimous anyway, is that there is no perfect electoral system. Is that something you'd agree with, that there's no perfect electoral system?
8:25 p.m.
Dean, Faculty of Law, Civil Law, Ottawa University, As an Individual
The system chooses different values. So, what you want to maximize is that the system that you have or propose is in line with some of the values that emerge and that you want to protect.