Electoral Reform Committee on Aug. 31st, 2016

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will now turn to the professors from Germany.

I would like to ask you a question about the political culture that may encourage a certain voting system, namely the mixed member proportional system that you have known for several decades and that you have explored for a long time.

In the work Mr. Lijphart, a professor from California, presented to us a few weeks ago, he said that the mixed member proportional system can lead to a more consensual type of governance. This voting system forces the parties to talk to each other, to work together and to make compromises. People generally like that, unlike the majority-wins model where a bulldozer government can be in power for four years.

To enlighten those who are less familiar with the German system, could you tell us how the political parties work before and after elections, and how they are able to form coalition governments or to work together?

[Prof. Joachim Behnke]

Yes, you cited Lijphart and his concept of consensus democracies. The political culture in Germany is really consensus oriented. Most laws in the Bundestag are passed with a great majority from most parties. It's seldom case that the majority of the governing coalition passes a law alone.

The formation of coalitions is really not so complicated in most cases, because we have something like pre-coalitions in the electoral campaign. The parties signal with which parties they want to build a coalition, and if this coalition is possible after the election, it is henceforth automatically a coalition. In many cases, people say that the flaw of proportional systems is people not knowing which coalitions they will get, but in reality this is not the case, because in most cases they get what they voted for.

Sometimes the pre-coalition that was announced in the campaign isn't possible after the electoral result. This is a big problem for the parties, but again, in Baden-Württemberg we now have a relative coalition between the Greens and the Conservatives. It's the first coalition of its kind in Germany and it took no longer to build than the typical coalitions that are signalled before.

We seldom have problems building coalitions.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I'm not sure whether Mr. Pukelsheim wants to answer the question.

[Prof. Friedrich Pukelsheim]

No, I think that the German system is consensus-oriented, and in a way you see it in the design of the Bundestag, which is a hemicircle, instead of being two sets of benches that face each other so that you jump each other. To jump each other is very difficult in the German Bundestag, merely because the seats are facing the wrong way.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

For your information, here, the benches of the government members and the opposition members are two sword lengths apart in case they want to fight. The philosophy is different here.

In Germany's experience, does the existence of coalition governments lead to political instability?

[Prof. Joachim Behnke]

That is one of the most popular arguments against proportional systems, but it is certainly not true for Germany. We have very stable governments. For example, Kohl reigned for 16 years, Schröder for 7 years, and Merkel has now reigned for 12 years. I think the stability of governments is not in question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

[Prof. Joachim Behnke]

In some Länder we have problems, but not in [Inaudible--Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Rayes, go ahead.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Pitcaithly, you previously said that most people will vote when they feel that their vote counts and that it depends more on the issue than the voting system in place.

According to the statistics on voter turnout in your country and around the world, there is a downward trend, and it's not necessarily because of the voting system.

You said that your system is quite complex and, to my great surprise, that many people do not understand all the implications of their votes. I see that your role is also to suggest changes and improvements to your proportional system, which is not perfect, like all the other electoral systems around the world.

I guess you have made changes since it was first implemented. Does it take a long time for the changes to be applied to the voting system? How many years or months did it take you to make those changes?

[Mary Pitcaithly]

As I said, something new, a new institution like the Scottish Parliament.... Their voting system hasn't changed. It has been the count system since it was created in 1999.

Turnout is actually up. This year, at the last Scottish Parliament elections, the highest number of voters ever turned out and cast their vote, so that is positive.

For some other changes.... I suppose the biggest change has been around council elections, local government elections, where it was a very significant change from first past the post, one-ward-one-councillor, to the STV system. That was introduced relatively quickly. It was proposed during the term of the council, but by the time the next election was due to happen, in 2007, the change had been introduced.

We had to spend a fair amount of time in the run-up to the election explaining to people that they were to use numbers and not crosses, but we also highlighted that if they did cast their vote with just a single cross, that would count as an expression of preference for their first preference candidate. That helped with the transition.

Yes, it is possible to make the change fairly quickly, as long as there is plenty of time to discuss with people how they cast their votes and how they can ensure that their vote counts.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

In Germany, did you make changes to your voting system? If so, how long did it take?

[Prof. Friedrich Pukelsheim]

There are two sets of changes. Some are initiated by the Federal Constitutional Court when it examines the electoral law, or in the states by the state constitutional courts. This is then amended promptly, more or less, as demanded by the court.

Other changes, which are more of a reform, are decided on the political level, and they take a while. I cannot cite any time span, but the reforms in the states of Hamburg and Bremen to leave the closed list and to establish a preference vote took quite a while because they were initiated from the outside and carried into the parliament. This may have been longer than four or five years, or two legislative periods. I don't really know. I would have to look it up.

[Prof. Joachim Behnke]

You have to keep in mind that all of these changes are minor changes in comparison to what you have to decide.

It was never a change between one type of system and another. It was always a change within the proportional system, and mostly within the mixed member proportional system. The changes referring to changes of the formula for distribution of seats from D'Hondt to Hare/Niemeyer and Sainte-Laguë, or from closed lists to open lists are not really essential changes, which I think is evidence that—

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

So this means that—

[Prof. Joachim Behnke]

—the German people are content with their system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Rayes, there's not enough time to hear the answers, but you can make a comment.

Since you are indicating that you have finished, we will conclude with Mr. Aldag's questions.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I'd like to start with Scotland on this one.

As we've seen, you have a number of systems in play. It seems that there have been changes, if I'm hearing you correctly.

Has every one of the new systems brought into place, or every change that's been made, gone to a referendum within the Scottish population? Are there any instances—and you don't have to give specific examples—where changes are made to your electoral system without referendum?

[Mary Pitcaithly]

Almost all changes—in fact, all of the changes—have been made without a referendum. The only referendum we've had was a U.K.-wide referendum on changing the system of voting for the U.K. parliament. As I said earlier, that was the AV referendum, changing to the initial vote system. That was not agreed by the electorate, so the change to the system did not take place.

Insofar as there have been changes, they've all been introduced without a referendum beforehand.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to hear from both of you—and I'll certainly bring in our German witnesses on this one—your thoughts on diversity. We have heard about proportional systems contributing to increased diversity. This is something that we're wanting to achieve in Canada to make sure that our population is represented in our House.

We're going to run out of time here, but I'll hear from our German witnesses first.

What is your experience with the mixed member proportional system? Do you find that it achieves the diversity you're looking for in your elected officials in relation to your general population? In any diversity that you see, does it come through the direct elections at the constituency level, or through the lists?

I'll put that to Scotland as well.

[Prof. Friedrich Pukelsheim]

It essentially comes through the list, but it's not formally enshrined in the legal provisions. The legal provisions provide the opportunity for the political parties to have lists with alternating placement of men and women. Parties have made use of this recently.

I would say that the system provides the opportunities to do that, but it is a challenge to the parties to carry this out in a party decision-making process.

[Prof. Joachim Behnke]

It's a part of the political culture of the party, especially with the Greens, as I mentioned, who use the lists not only for alternating women and men but also [Inaudible--Editor] for elderly people or people with ethnic backgrounds, or for immigrants, for example.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Okay.

[Prof. Joachim Behnke]

It depends on the parties.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

In terms of Scotland and your experience with achieving diversity, do you see it happening in the Scottish Parliament? If so, do you see gains in diversity coming through the direct elections or through the list process?