Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 21st, 2016

[Jeff Braunstein, As an Individual]

Hello. My name is Jeff, and in the interests of full disclosure, I want to say that I do work for the Green Party. I'm coming here today to speak as a citizen and as a voter, and say that I understand the difficulty in implementing a proportional representation system. That difficulty doesn't come from the lack of merit in proportionality. It comes because the governing party would at least on paper have to give up some of its power in order to implement that proportional system, and that's a difficult thing to do.

I wanted to come and remind everybody how quickly that pendulum swings the other way. You can go from being the party with all of the power to being the party with none of the power very quickly. This system isn't balanced, it isn't steady progress, and it puts party over country. We all get legislative whiplash whenever an administration changes and the new administration spends its first couple of years undoing everything that the last administration had done. As a consequence, Canada isn't where we should be. We're doing okay, but we should be doing better than we are right now, and it's largely because of that back-and-forth whiplash system.

The debate about the merits of proportional representation versus first past the post is over. It's PR, and it's PR by a landslide. I think we all know that. It's just a matter of whether you and the House of Commons will have the courage to make the obvious and necessary changes for Canada and put that interest over party interests.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Durrant, and Mr. Deutsch, please.

[Christopher Durrant, As an Individual]

Hello. My name is Christopher Durrant, and I want to thank you all for the hard work you're doing.

I know you have a lot of work balancing values and what Canadians' values are, and I'm not going to talk to you about the legitimacy, diversity, and benefit to public policy that a proportional representation system would bring you. I know you have to think of other values Canadians have, and I was thinking, what are the other values Canadians have? One of them is that they like a representative who has a link to a geographic riding. They like someone they know, someone they grew up with, or at least someone friends of friends know, and they like having their MPs to be accessible. They like coming to your constituency office. They like hemming you in at the church picnic.

Matt DeCourcey, they're coming for you at the Fredericton farmers market. They have an issue, and they want to talk about it now.

What system could accommodate that value as well as the value of proportional representation? I think that would be the system that's known as best runner-up, mixed member proportional, and that's when...it doesn't change our ballots. In most cases we're still electing one member for one riding, but just to top up the proportionality of the House of Commons, the best runners-up from the parties that are under-represented in the House of Commons are elected as well, and they act as second representatives to the regions.

I think this can also be done in a way that represents Canada's special nature. It could be done on a regional level. The province of Quebec, and the prairies, and the maritimes could all be guaranteed that they would be getting a share of the top-up representation. I think it's a great compromise choice. I'm sure you've heard from some people who want to keep voting simple, and I think there is an advantage to that in terms of accessibility. This system would make voting fair and simple, so I urge you to consider it.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Deutsch, followed by Mr. Frydman.

Go ahead, Mr. Deutsch.

[Adam Deutsch, As an Individual]

Hi. I was forced at the door to be either a participant or an observer. I decided to be a participant.

Actually, I'm a member of the Green Party, but I don't like politics. I'm only interested in public policy, and if any other party picks up the Green Party platform, I'd be happy to vote for it.

The reason I came here tonight is that my soul is being destroyed by the current system. I have voted many times against what I believe in just to avoid a worse alternative. I don't think I'm alone on that. I'm not in favour of any specific system, but I'm in favour of a proportional system. I think the system mentioned by the previous speaker was very attractive, and there were others that seemed good as well.

An earlier witness spoke about climate change. Which system is best for reducing climate change? I used to work for a company that had offices in Sweden. I've been there six or seven times. Every time I went there I noticed that Sweden was decades ahead of Canada in its action on climate change. Countries like Sweden and Germany have proportional representation systems. They have Green Party members in their Parliament. I think the nudging effect of the Green party is in everybody's interest. I think the Liberals would benefit from it right now. They can just blame everything on the Green Party.

I canvassed in the 2007 referendum in Ontario. I'd never done any political work before. The most common reaction was that people would ask whether a referendum was being held. Those people who did know about it were a little wary, and they preferred the devil they knew to the devil they didn't know.

That referendum was held at the same time as an election. I think that's a very bad idea. When we finally got 37% on that referendum, I was astounded. I was expecting 5% or 6% from what I'd seen. I actually thought it was a rather positive reaction, given the poor publicity around it. If a referendum is to be held, I would suggest that it be held after people have already experienced the new voting system. It's very hard to make a judgment without that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Frydman.

[Sam Frydman, As an Individual]

Thank you.

You're here to discuss change and change is never easy. Change is always difficult and there are always many opponents to change.

The important thing is that all these wonderful ideas you've heard are assimilated and included in your decision-making.

I have concerns about some of the issues that were brought up with regard to simplicity on the ballot, complexity on the ballot. I have worked elections and I have seen even the most simple ballot be a struggle. Why is it a struggle? It's a struggle because of lack of education. You cannot simply put a picture of a ballot on the front page of a newspaper one day and expect people to understand it. There has to be an investment in education. Whatever decisions are made, I look forward to a better democracy coming from this committee.

My biggest concern is one voiced by Thomas Lindsay. He noted that we citizens come to meetings like this and we speak into a mike, but unfortunately, the mike isn't connected to anything.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

In response to that last comment, I can assure you, after listening to people expressing themselves, sometimes with great emotion and conviction, that this testimony will have an impact on our thinking. It really will.

I've witnessed my own thinking evolve over time as I speak to more and more people. It does have an impact, I assure you.

Ms. Yormika is not here.

We will hear from Mr. Fiorani and then Miriam Anderson.

[Ettore Fiorani, As an Individual]

Hello. Thank you for the time today.

This is a fundamental decision. A lot of people don't realize that. Before making such a fundamental decision, we need a referendum.

The precedent in Canada and in similar countries suggests that a referendum has to be held before the fundamental decision. I'm glad people have mentioned New Zealand, Ontario, and P.E.I. What do those places have in common? They held a referendum where all voters got to vote if they wanted to, before making a decision.

Town halls are not enough. You have 40 or 50 people—or maybe 100 people here. You'd have to hold thousands of them, and maybe even more, and you wouldn't get the input you would get in a referendum.

Furthermore, the minister always likes to fall back on inclusivity and wanting to consult with as many people as possible—immigrants, women, you name it. Yet she wants to deny immigrants, women, and millions of Canadian voters the chance to vote in a referendum. I'm an immigrant. My family are immigrants, and we'd all like to vote in a referendum.

Finally, I think it's a bad precedent to leave the decision in the hands of a few hundred politicians. They may be good people, but at the end of the day, they have some self-interest.

Along with this, former prime minister David Cameron, after the Brexit referendum, said that despite his side losing, he was proud that in his country they left fundamental decisions in the hands of the people. I hope that Canadians will be able to be proud of that, too, and that they leave this decision where it belongs, and that's in the hands of the Canadian people.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We have Ms. Anderson and then Mr. Dimitre Popov.

Ms. Anderson, please.

[Miriam Anderson, As an Individual]

Hello. I'm an assistant professor in the department of politics and public administration at Ryerson University. I support any form of proportional representation that the committee recommends.

There are three problems I see in the current electoral system that I would like to see addressed by any new system proposed.

The first is eliminating the need for strategic voting. Personally, I absolutely hate not being able to vote for my first choice and always having to try to decide who the two top running candidates are in my local riding, and then to choose one of them.

Secondly, a number of people have spoken to this, I think a false majority that our current system creates is fundamentally anti-democratic, problematic, and something that would be addressed by some form of proportional representation.

Thirdly, I'm concerned about the low representation of women in the House of Commons. Currently they rank 64th in the world, with only 26% of women in the House of Commons. Many of the systems that rank near the top have some form of proportional representation. It's also easier to ensure that there are more women running with some kind of list. When parties have to put forward a full list, then they can guarantee that a certain percentage are of each gender, which is easier than dealing with just single-member electoral districts.

In closing, I think this is a huge, once-in-a-generation opportunity to create a new electoral system. Thank you so much for being part of this committee, and I look forward to seeing what you propose.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Popov, and then Mr. Aly Khan Pabani.

Go ahead, sir.

[Dimitre Popov, As an Individual]

Good evening.

My name is Dimitre Popov. I am a founder of a non-profit, non-partisan organization, Canadians for Integrity. I am also an activist with the independent campaigning community, Leadnow.

Today's times are not yesterday's. Today, Canadian voters are better informed and better organized. As a result of the actions of the Leadnow community, the current government was able to form a majority government. We will support this government only if it governs in good faith and solely in the interests of the common good. We will eject from the public office in the next election any member of Parliament who puts special interests before the interests of Canadians and Canada.

In the first past the post system, governments win power only with a portion of the vote, and a substantial number of votes go in the trash. That is not consistent with democratic principles. Any group that has more than 4% of all votes should be entitled to representation in Parliament. Canadians want their votes to count.

For that reason, as you are no doubt aware, approximately 85% of informed average Canadians want proportional representation. The government should consider this fact and implement proportional representation, something Mr. Trudeau promised to do during the election if his Liberal Party was elected. We voted the Liberals in because we believed Mr. Trudeau was sincere when making promises during the campaign. The time to implement the proportional representation system has come.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Pabani and then Ms. Tamara Bassilios.

Go ahead, sir.

[Aly Pabani, As an Individual]

Hi there. I'm Aly Khan Pabani. I'm a constituent of Parkdale—High Park. I just want to first talk about the issue of having a referendum. The issue is being addressed a lot here or thrown around a lot. I want to say I don't think a referendum is appropriate when the issue is dealing with actual fairness towards minorities and the disenfranchised.

We wouldn't have a referendum on whether or not women or people with disabilities should vote. We wouldn't have referendums on rights for visible minorities. Those are simple, self-evident issues of fairness, and fair elections to me is a self-evident issue of fairness, so I don't think a referendum is appropriate at all.

Let's put that to bed already, okay? A referendum is being pushed by the Conservatives only because they want to keep the status quo, and they know a referendum is a quick way of doing that because people have a tendency to head towards the status quo.

Also, I want to say I advocate for fully publicly funded elections as the way to encourage more of a participatory democracy, regardless of personal welfare or income. I feel like the current system inherently enables or favours large donors and deeper pockets by giving them more influence inherently on our politicians. ...and enhance our political system. You see this in issues like the setting of the corporate tax law and even the enforcement of the corporate tax law. You see this in issues such as dubious pipelines, shady arms deals, and mercury mutations. You see this profit-driven influence affecting our politicians, and this needs to stop immediately, the TPP especially. That's heading off topic, but, yes, I'm definitely opposed to the TPP.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There's another committee travelling on that. Punt that one to them, okay?

[Aly Pabani]

Regardless, I think big-money influence is definitely eroding democracy worldwide, and it also deepens existing wounds like those that have been inflicted on first nations people and indigenous peoples around the world.

My last point on the actual form of voting system is, I oppose a ranked ballot system because it essentially incentivizes another form of strategic voting, which is ranking the candidates on the ballot.

If I vote for a party on the margins or a candidate on the margins, my first vote is essentially discarded, and I'm left with the choice of either voting for someone who's a more likely winner who I disagree with, and, hence, getting no representation in the House, or sticking with my only vote, my first choice, and still getting no representation in the House. I want representation in the House. I don't think that's too much to ask for. Mixed member proportional representation is a no-brainer. It's the only way to go.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Bassilios followed by Ms. Kristen Dahl.

[Tamara Bassilios, As an Individual]

Thank you for this opportunity to weigh in on this historic decision. Every day I wake up thankful for living in this beautiful country. I'm going to try not to cry. We are luckier than most on this planet, and I think we need to ensure that we do everything within our power to continue to make decisions that are in the best interest of this country, and I think we set an example for the rest of the world.

There are a few major factors that weigh against us and our headwinds in our continued success. The political system is one system we can influence. The financial system I think may be a little bit beyond our control. The political system is really the easiest way for us to influence the decisions that are made on our behalf that influence what happens in this country. Though I'm happy to be a Canadian, proud to be a Canadian, and thankful for the safety we're offered here, for the education system we have, and for the medical system have, it is not perfect, and there's still some work to be done.

I'm not going to stand here and quote you all of the studies I know are out there. There are experts who have already done that work who say the system could benefit from some change. I'm just here to recommend we hear them out, and we hear out the Canadians who have expressed their views that they would like to see change.

I also believe that solving these problems we have will require some really hard work from some really intelligent people, and at this point in time there may not be an incentive for those who really care to continue doing the good work they do. I'm very honoured to stand in front of some of the people who are doing that good work here today, so thank you for that.

Thank you for this opportunity, and I look forward to hearing the recommendations to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Dahl, please, then after Ms. Dahl, Mr. Robertson.

[Kristen Dahl, As an Individual]

Hello. My name is Kristen Dahl, and I live in Toronto Centre. I didn't know this was happening tonight, so I'm glad that my friend told me at the last minute. I consider myself to be fairly politically engaged, so I worry about what would happen in a referendum for those of us who aren't as involved and how they would learn about a complex issue.

I'm here in support of some sort of proportional representation. I don't think our Parliament is reflective of the people and the diversity of Canada. I think voters feel alienated, and the results are apathy and anger. I am an environmentalist, and I've never voted for who I'd like to vote for. I'm sorry, Ms. May. I have the sentiments of so many other people here who feel disenfranchised and frustrated by a system that not only doesn't represent them, but also is a system where many feel like me that they can't vote for who they'd like to.

This is such a unique opportunity for change. I know you hear this again and again. We trust that our representatives in committee will make a decision based on evidence in support of a system that's more fair.

I worry that a referendum will look something like the Brexit vote, with misinformation, lack of deep understanding, and a media spreading wild stories. I certainly echo the sentiments of the gentleman from Parkdale—High Park with his thoughts about a referendum and minorities who are losing out.

I support proportional representation. I hope it results in a more collaborative representative and goes into Parliament.

Thank you so much for being here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, and thank you for making it out tonight.

Mr. Robertson, followed by Mr. Germann.

Go ahead, Mr. Robertson.

[Kenneth Robertson, As an Individual]

I'm Ken Robertson from Barrie, Ontario. I feel honoured being here tonight. I didn't expect this. I was in Oakville this afternoon at a retiree's meeting. I was going to come here tonight because I knew about it, but I didn't think I'd get an opportunity to speak. I thank you for doing this and spending all day at it. A lot of people don't realize the work that MPs do put in, as well as MPPs, and I think they should know that.

The reason I got involved 15 years ago...my son had come home from doing an apprenticeship. It was the first time he was eligible to vote, and I asked him to get in the truck and we'd go vote. He said he wasn't going to go. He wasn't interested in voting because his vote wasn't going to count. He was curious as to why I was voting. He said, “I know how you vote, and your vote never counts”. I went out and voted. He didn't go. I got thinking about that. I did a bit of research and I found out about Fair Vote Canada, which had started up. I started looking at some of the stats. I saw that in most of our elections we were getting majority governments of 30%, 38%, and 40%. Bob Rae, I think, in Ontario, got 37%.

Whether it's in Alberta with Notley, or whether it's in Ontario with Wynne, or in Ottawa with Harper or Trudeau, it's the same result. It's a little insane when you think about it.

I joined the Fair Vote chapter. I lived in Oakville at the time. I'm in Simcoe now. I joined the Simcoe chapter, and we've been fairly active. We've gone into schools, we've gone to service clubs, and we've gone to union halls. The one thing that everybody gets...and I heard a comment here that electoral reform is complicated. You know when you go to service clubs, and you go to union halls, and you go to schools, and you tell them 38% represents 100%, they think that's complicated.

The one thing about our referendum—and I've heard this a lot tonight—you've got to remember a hundred years ago women got the right to vote. If there had been a referendum, then I can guarantee you men wouldn't have given them that right to vote. They wouldn't have done that.

Asian Canadians didn't get the right to vote until 1947-48. First nations Canadians didn't get the right to vote until 1960. There were no referendums. That was done without that.

I went to three town halls that our Conservative MP Alex Nuttall put on. He talked about a number of issues, including electoral reform. At those meetings he made the comment—and I heard it tonight from a gentleman who was up here to speak—that the MPs don't have the ability to make those decisions. I think you do. I have a lot of faith in him, and I have a lot of faith in you guys.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

[Kenneth Robertson]

I have just one comment about my grandson