Evidence of meeting #28 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elected.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yvan Dutil  Consultant and Tutor, Université TELUQ, As an Individual
Jean Rémillard  As an Individual
Raymond Côté  As an Individual
Jean-Pierre Derriennic  Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
Blanche Paradis  As an Individual
Esther Lapointe  As an Individual
Jean Rousseau  Canada-United States Inter-Parliamentary Group
Guy Boivin  As an Individual
Maurice Berthelot  As an Individual
Nicolas Saucier  As an Individual
Gerrit Dogger  As an Individual
Richard Domm  As an Individual
Samuel Moisan-Domm  As an Individual
Éric Montigny  Executive Director, Research Chair on Democracy and Parliamentary Institutions, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
Bernard Colas  Attorney, CMKZ LLP, former Commissioner of the Law Commission of Canada, As an Individual
Serge Marcotte  As an Individual

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

The meeting is called to order.

We are very happy to be back in the wonderful city of Québec, on this glorious fall day.

For those of you who do not know, this is the committee's 28th meeting, and its fourth in its cross-Canada tour which begin in Regina on Monday. We were in Winnipeg on Tuesday, in Toronto yesterday, and now we are in the lovely city of Québec. Our tour will continue for two and a half weeks.

I will explain to the witnesses and the members of the public how the meeting will proceed. The witnesses have 10 minutes to make their presentation. We will begin with Mr. Dutil and Mr. Rémillard.

The presentations will be followed by a question period during which each MP may speak with the witnesses for five minutes. That includes the MPs' questions and the witnesses' answers. Through these exchanges, we learn a great deal about electoral reform, what kind of electoral system people want, and why they would like to see changes.

Without further delay, I invite Mr. Dutil to take the floor for 10 minutes.

1:35 p.m.

Yvan Dutil Consultant and Tutor, Université TELUQ, As an Individual

Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, thank you.

I acquired a fair amount of experience with voting methods during the provincial consultations in Quebec. I have not worked on the issue as much in the past few years. The last consultation was in 2007. I am however quite current on the research in the field.

To begin, the study of voting methods dates back to the year 105 AD. Voting methods were first studied by Pliny the Younger when it was noticed that a plurality of votes was problematic if there are more than two candidates. That is the subject of a fairly well-known legal judgment.

This problem was forgotten for many centuries. In the 14th century, the Catalan philosopher Ramón Llull began studying the issue, followed by his disciple Nicolas de Cues in the 15th century.

After being forgotten for a few centuries, the Marquis de Condorcet and chevalier de Borda rediscovered the problem of the plurality of votes during the French Revolution, in the 18th century. Finally, the English mathematician Lewis Carroll also studied the issue in the 19th century.

The purpose of this field of study, known as the social choice theory, is to determine how to choose the best possible candidate.

Another branch of the same field is equity theory, which pertains to proportionality or determining how to distribute seats in the fairest way possible. This was debated at length by the Americans in drafting their constitution in order to determine how they would distribute seats. They worked on this a great deal.

There is something very frustrating about all of this research. Each time, people started over from scratch because none of them knew of their predecessors' work. In the 1950s, the serious work began and mathematicians and political scientists made their contributions.

Once again, the problem is that these are two completely different branches of knowledge. In the field of political economy, people worked on voting methods, and in political science, they studied the effects of the various voting methods. We have everything we need to create a good voting method. The knowledge is there, but it is spread out in three or four fields whose experts do not speak to each other.

As a physicist, interdisciplinary barriers are not a problem for me. So I gathered parts of all this knowledge to get an idea of what should be done.

Official research began in the 1950s. The last original voting method that was invented is the German compensatory system, which dates from the roughly same period. Clearly, not a single voting system in the world right now has benefited from the research done in the last 60 years.

I have also read that the Society for Social Choice and Welfare, a group that works on the social choice theory, had only been consulted once, by the government of Mongolia, during an electoral reform. I will try to explain a few general rules to give you an overview.

There are two main groups of voting methods. There are the methods used to elect a candidate, either a mayor or a president. In our case in Canada, it would perhaps be the Governor General or the Speaker of the House of Commons. This group includes 20 or 25 voting methods such as the transferable vote, the N-round, the Condorcet and the Borda methods and so on. A bit later on, Mr. Côté will tell us about majority judgment voting, a recent innovation that I find very interesting. In short, these methods are used to elect one person, so if you want to elect a president, they are the best methods to consider.

In order to elect an assembly, Montesquieu favoured a method that would best represent the population. That is a completely different kind of voting method and is part of the proportional voting group. There are twenty or so of them, and they also have their share of problems.

As well, there are limiting factors owing to the limitations of the human brain. For example, we can work with series of seven items. We cannot do more than that. In an experimental vote I held with a number of candidates at Laval University in 2007, people lost sight of the seventh candidate. He no longer existed. In France, a similar experimental vote was also conducted. There was a tremendous number of presidential candidates. People were not able to evaluate more than seven candidates. It was beyond their abilities. Regardless of the voting method, we cannot exceed those limitations of the human brain.

Voting methods have an effect, and I doubt I am the first person to tell you that. In a plurality system, there is an economic incentive that encourages you to invest your money in the best candidate and, on voting day, there are just two main parties or two candidates left. For example, if you don't like one of the candidates, you will vote for the candidate who is most likely to defeat the candidate you don't like. This is a purely economic mechanism, which is disappearing though. Some disillusioned people will say, in their disgust with politics, that people will vote more sincerely. We see that in Quebec where this electorate keeps growing.

In proportional systems, there is a distribution known as Lefebvre's law. In plurality systems, it is Duverger's law.

In proportional systems, there is Lefebvre's law, a law in psychology, which corresponds roughly to the distribution of any good or service. Even ice cream flavours follow this law. People vote much more freely. As seen from the outside, a voter who votes freely is someone who votes almost randomly. The factors that a voter considers when voting are extremely complex. They can range from the tone of voice of the person speaking to him to what he ate six months ago—just kidding. A voter can even consider a political act from 20 years ago. So we have this exponential distribution.

This has repercussions. Let us consider the last election to try understand the impact of a voting method.

If we change the voting method, the outcome will not be the same. In the interest of transparency, I should say that I have been a Green Party candidate in the past. The Green Party could win votes, but the bigger parties would not win as many. Parties we have never heard of could emerge, such as a federal party similar to the wildrose party. The number of parties will increase.

When we do simulations, we cannot take the results from the last election and fit them into the new voting method. You would not get the same results.

With proportional voting methods, the best way to do the distribution from a mathematical point of view is what is known as the Webster—Sainte-Laguë method. In a purely proportional system, it is essentially the usual rounding. Mathematically, the simplest method is the best. The only drawback is that the usual rounding “fails” from time to time. From time to time, two parties will have the same ratio, although one party has twice the number of votes as the other party. As a result of division, both would go from +1 to -1 at the same time. We cannot get the exact number of MPs. Assume there are 338 seats. We would go from 337 MPs to 339 MPs, and there is no way of arriving between the two.

In the past, I built measurement instruments. In the United States, it happens once every 3,500 years when they do the seat distribution. It is clear that it would happen after two elections. Elections in which two candidates win the same number of votes are not supposed to happen, but it does happen all the same. That is something that will have to be included in the elections act because it can fail.

Lefebvre's law means that when there is an electoral threshold, for each percent of this threshold, 3% to 3.5% of the ballots go into the garbage. It starts getting complicated when the threshold is above 5%. In Turkey, the electoral threshold of discarded ballots is 10% to 40%. It is proportional, but it is not very different from our system. So we need to aim for low thresholds.

In a proportional system, everyone thinks you need 50% of the votes to get a majority. That is not the case though. Typically, if a party wins 44% or 45% of the votes, it will have 50% of the seats and form a majority. Here, it is 38%. That does not change the dynamics very much. The only difference is that, in a proportional system, coalitions can be formed more easily and there will be more majority governments. Just because it is a proportional system, that does not mean that a party needs the majority of votes to win the majority of seats.

This works relatively well on the whole, except for the stability problem with proportional systems. Problems can arise in two cases: if it is too stable or if it is not stable enough. It is really a combination of two factors, the degree of fragmentation of society and the degree of proportionality. This requires some thought. In a proportional system, the largest party wins about 30% of the votes. If Lefebvre's law applies in pure form and it is a uniform society, the biggest party will get 30% of the votes and will form a coalition with another party. The problem is that there have to be several parties in order to form a coalition. Otherwise, the same party is always in power with the coalition party on the other side. Then things freeze up.

There has to be enough parties. If the system is not proportional enough and if there are not enough parties, the situation remains completely stable and nothing changes at all. If there are really too many parties though, unstable coalitions are formed between three or four parties. The way society is organized is what determines the success or failure of proportional systems.

We have a fragmented society in Canada, but not as fragmented as elsewhere. We have the equivalent of four or five major political regions. In Belgium, for example, society is divided in two and Lefebvre's law applies twice. Moreover, Belgium has completely ridiculous electoral laws, resulting in an incredibly large number of parties. This complicates matters. Italy has the same problem. We tend to forget that Canada is an old country that has been around for 150 years. Countries in Europe such as Germany or Italy have a much shorter history. These are further considerations.

There is another important aspect. In a regional proportional system of whatever type, if there are fewer than six MPs, it is no longer proportional. The electoral threshold is based on the number of MPs and even with rounding off, you can only get half. With six MPs, you would have about 6% of the electoral threshold at most. It would be better with seven or eight MPs.

In Canada—you know Canadian geography as well as I do—, that is problematic. Prince Edward Island, for example, does not have six MPs. I mention that because in Zurich, Switzerland, someone went to court arguing that there were three candidates in his electoral district and that he would be voting for a party that has less than 10% of the seats. He pointed out to the court that the constitution declares everyone to be equal, yet his vote would never count and there is no possibility that it would in the future. The court found in his favour and that is why a mathematical solution to the problem had to be found.

In the Parliament of Canada, we have just about the right number of MPs. Theoretically, the optimal number would be 327, but we have 338. So we are very close. We do not have too many MPs and we do not have too few either. The opposite is true in some provinces in Canada where there should ideally be more. Moreover, a proportional system does not really have an impact on the representation of women.

In Canada, we have one of the worst contexts ...

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

You have only a few seconds left, but what you are saying is very interesting.

1:45 p.m.

Consultant and Tutor, Université TELUQ, As an Individual

Yvan Dutil

Okay.

We have one of the worst contexts in which to introduce a proportional system.

I will suggest a solution that was submitted to me by a researcher from France called the “mixed equitable majority” voting method. It is a proportional system in which the existing electoral districts are maintained. Compensation is achieved by changing the weight of the votes. Each vote for each party is given more or less weight in order to achieve proportional representation. It is used in Switzerland for the reason mentioned earlier. Someone had gone to court complaining that the system in force did not work. It is used in Zurich and in two Swiss cantons. I have done a few simulations but have not yet studied it in detail. It is challenging working with algorithms, I have to say. I have them, but I have not used them yet.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Chair...

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Are you talking about the equitable majority voting method?

1:45 p.m.

Consultant and Tutor, Université TELUQ, As an Individual

Yvan Dutil

Yes, that's right.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Very well, Mr. Dutil. That is quite a different way of looking at things. This information is in addition to the testimony we have heard so far.

Thank you.

We will now move on to Mr. Rémillard.

1:45 p.m.

Jean Rémillard As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to share my research findings about a voting system that I call “rationalized majority”. The word “rationalized” means two things. First, it means “appealing to reason and not only to mathematics”. Secondly, it means “that uses ratios”.

The concept of ratios is familiar to everyone; we see it in finance and in other fields. Ratios are mathematical results applied to phenomena and that include an element of constancy. The definition of ratio I am using here is essentially the percentage of elected representatives in relation to the percentage of votes. It is quite simple.

There are historical ratios that have been identified by various researchers. I mention a few of them in the brief I submitted. Generally speaking, historical ratios are based on the party's role. For the party forming government, that is, the party that has the majority and is elected, it is about 1.2. That is the percentage of MPs in relation to the percentage of votes. For parties forming the official opposition, it is approximately 0.8. For third parties, it is about 0.5, but with many exceptions. The numbers are sometimes much higher.

We do not have to stick with these ratios. The ratios for third parties, for instance, can be much higher, which could be very interesting to examine in certain cases. For a parliament with 300 seats, for instance—we are not far from that—, a party could win 5% of the seats and 20% of the votes. This is of course true for a number of third parties, which is embarrassing and frustrating. In this case, the party's ratio would be determined by 5% of MPs to 20% of the votes. The result is 0.25. The party forming the official opposition would have a ratio of 0.8. So the number of MPs there should be is calculated as follows: 0.8 × 20% × 300 = 48. If by chance the party already has 5% of 300, that would be 15. So the party would be awarded 33 more 33 MPs.

If a party is one of the third parties, the ratio is lower. For example, 0.5 × 20% × 300 = 30 MPs less the 15 it already has. So the party would be awarded an additional 15 MPs. Depending on the party's role as determined by the results in a first-past-the-post election, additional seats are awarded to certain parties.

I have studied the federal elections from 1963 to 2015 and the ratios obtained are pretty much in line with what I just told you. There are some outliers though. Since 1984, for instance, the ratio obtained by the party forming government ranged from 1.5 to 1.22, for an average of 1.28 since 1963. This is very close to the historical ratio. For the party in official opposition in Canada, the ratio is 1. In the end, it is nearly proportional. That is an average. For a third party, the ratio in Canada is 0.85, but can be as high as 1.6. It varies from case to case. In 2006 and 2008, the ratio was 1.6. The third party with the most votes had a ratio that was as high as that of the party forming government, which is rather strange. This is one of the unpredictable aspects.

Secondly, MPs are awarded by rationalization, that is, people vote the same way they do now without any change. Mathematical adjustments are made after the fact. Theoretically, we could take the 2015 election results and apply this system by awarding MPs based on the ratios.

I have also calculated the number of MPs that would have been added to the Parliament of Canada if we had applied the rationalized system since 1963. I will not go into the details, but 111 MPs would have been added over these 17 elections. That is an average of 6.5 more MPs per election, which is not that many. All the same, it is more interesting than what is happening in Germany.

I also did a comparison with the mixed system in Germany.

It should be noted that initially, in 1949, there were two votes. Each voter had two votes, one to elect a riding representative by simple majority, as in our electoral system, and another that was purely proportional.

The German parliament was initially divided in two in a way. Some representatives were elected by simple majority and some were elected proportionally. This led to appalling imbalances in some cases. Many excess representatives were elected, exceeding the proportional ratio. This led to a very elastic house of representatives, which could have a highly variable number of representatives from one election to another. Above all, it contradicted the fundamental rule of proportional representation in that some political parties had far too many representatives.

Fifteen years ago or so, the Karlsruhe constitutional court decided to apply full proportional representation, but by offsetting the excess representatives elected by simple majority by reducing the number of representatives elected proportionally. I hope you are following me. So, for the overall result to be proportional representation, a political party with too many representatives elected by simple majority would have fewer than it should have by proportional representation.

Here, too, there is a problem. Some parties had so many representatives, even in excess of what the proportional system took away from them. The German house of representatives is therefore still elastic. Some people say it could reach 700 representatives, although in principle there are 598 seats. That has not happened yet. Right now, there are about 630 representatives. That is how Germany's mixed system works.

I wanted to transpose this system to Canada based on the results of federal elections since 1963 to see what it would look like. The simulation is not exact. It is not possible to transpose the percentage of votes obtained by the various parties in a first-past-the-post system to a mixed proportional system, especially not the German mixed system. As a result, one has to bear in mind that the calculation cannot produce exact results. It does give some indication, however.

There is an interesting point in defining a proportional system. There is a purely proportional system, which has incredible limitations that I will not go into.

Let us look quickly at Italy, which has that kind of system. It has the same drawback as all purely proportional systems, namely, that the parliament becomes completely ungovernable. To counteract that, the number of parties must be reduced or the governing parties must be given a true majority of representatives. Italy decided, however, that, in the case of a minority government, the party was awarded representatives. That is quite unusual. Since a majority is needed, the party is awarded more representatives.

That said, the current German system does not work that way. I made that point earlier and I do not need to repeat it. In my simulation of the German system in relation to Canada's system, I used our current Parliament. It has 338 seats at present, although the number of seats has been much lower. Two calculation methods can be used, either divide by two or multiply by two so that part of the House is elected by simple majority and the other part by a strictly proportional method with compensation, as is the case in Germany's mixed system at present.

Under this system, there are no additional representatives if a party does not have at least three representatives with a majority. So under this system, the small parties get their wings clipped. The system I am proposing, however, really gives the small parties an extra chance, without impeding the governing majority or the official opposition. This has many benefits.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mr. Rémillard, do you still have a lot of points to cover?

I think the members of the committee would really like to delve into the details by asking you and Mr. Dutil some questions.

2 p.m.

As an Individual

Jean Rémillard

I would like to make one or two more brief points.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

That's fine.

2 p.m.

As an Individual

Jean Rémillard

It is said that, strangely, the mixed system in Germany is very stable. It is stable in the sense that it has had the same party in power 14 times out of 17. That is the CDU/CSU group, which ultimately represents 40% of the vote. Yet it is always required to form an alliance with the smallest party in order to have a true majority. There have only been three elections when this parliamentary group was not in power.

Canada is much more flexible in this regard. The party in power alternates between the Liberals and the Conservatives. The Canadian system is therefore much more open as to the party that forms the official opposition.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I have to interrupt you there, Mr. Rémillard.

What we have heard from these two witnesses is really quite different from the testimony we have heard up until now. In the proportional system itself, there can be different dynamics depending on how the system is designed. At this stage of our proceedings, I must say that is quite an original idea. I would really like to explore the ideas you have presented.

I will now turn it over to Ms. Sahota for five minutes.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us here today.

I'd like to start with you, Mr. Rémillard.

I found your comparison with other countries intriguing, but I'm a little bit lost as to what you would advocate in Canada. Given the large size of our country and the large size of our ridings, what would you recommend as the system we should adopt?

2 p.m.

As an Individual

Jean Rémillard

Very simply, keep our present system, because it's not a bad system—and there are various reasons for that—but amend it a little after each election so that small parties get a bigger voice. This is what many parties, such as the Parti vert.... They don't agree with that, because they're so left aside, whereas in my system they would have received many more députés.

All of the details are in the big document.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Well, Mr. Dutil says there should be a threshold, and you were saying that Germany has perhaps too high a threshold at 5%. Mr. Dutil was saying that 5% is perhaps a good threshold to have; otherwise, we would have far too many parties in this country.

First, do you think we should have a threshold, and if so, how much should that be? As well, what would be far too many parties for this country?

2:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Jean Rémillard

It is not necessary in my system to have a threshold, because we have a

gift for the winning party.

The government party has a higher percentage of députés than percentage of votes, and we give to the other parties—like the opposition party and a third party—ratios that are under 1%, whereas the government party has an actual ratio over 1%, at 1.2% or 1.3%.

The historical ratio for an opposition party is about 0.8%, whereas the same ratio for the third party is about 0.5%, so it's half. If a party has 20% of the votes, multiplied by 0.5%, it gives them 10% of the députés. If they have only 3% of the députés , we give the party 7% more députés. Do you understand?

Therefore there is no need for a threshold, because the majority of the government and the importance of the official opposition party will never be certain.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Would you like to add your comments?

2:05 p.m.

Consultant and Tutor, Université TELUQ, As an Individual

Yvan Dutil

The issue of threshold is tricky because, I would say, the issue is how you put it and whether you have a regional threshold or a national one. If you ask for a 5% national threshold, it is harsher than a 5% regional threshold.

In many countries they have a double threshold. A couple of those might be up to 10% in some cases, but if your party has more than 5% nationally, you will have an MP in Parliament.

I'm not very happy with the idea of the threshold. Let's say the threshold is 5%. If you get 5.1% of the vote, if you throw out all the votes below the 5%, you end up with roughly 6% or 7% of the members of parliament. Following that, if you get 4.9%, then you get zero.

That's why I think what I call a “round threshold” would be better. A round threshold is simply that we take the percentage of the vote and we remove 2%—it can go lower—and then if you have 3%, you get 1% of all the votes. It's smoother, because it's from zero to 1%, and not zero to 7%, so you have a smoother curve. For the small parties it avoids what has happened many times, and the Green Party knows that everywhere. You have 10 MPs and then you end up with two. You have crashed, because you have lost 1% of the vote. This is what I would like; it would be better.

The issue I have—and I have not simulated it much—is that my concern is for government stability. We have a prescription and we can calculate roughly how many months a government coalition can survive. If we know the size of the membership, we can simulate that, but I have not. What I am saying to you is my gut feeling for the moment, and I have to be rigorous.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Mr. Rayes has the floor now.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us here today. My first question is very simple.

Mr. Rémillard, at the start of your presentation, you said you had submitted a brief. I do not have a copy of it.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Apparently it is being translated right now.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

So we will be able to see your brief because, initially, I was a bit confused by all the figures you presented. I would like to be able to look them over quietly. I would also like to say good luck to the interpreters, who I look at from time to time. We will take the time to look over your brief because I am very interested in your calculations.

I have a question for you, Mr. Dutil.

You referred to an equitable majority vote. Based on our meetings with various experts and members of the public, two main themes emerged from the testimony of those who are unhappy with the status quo. First is the lack of interest in politics. There are all kinds of reasons for this depending on who you talk to. Some voters say their vote does not count while others says they do not vote because they do not have the time, due to medical problems or because they were outside their riding on voting day. I will not get into all the details on that. There is also the question of representation in Parliament which, in their view, does not reflect the percentage of the vote nationally. Some voters are also very concerned about local representation. You also touched on that briefly.

As to your equitable majority system, as I understand it, MPs are added if necessary. Could you please go over that part of your presentation again?

2:10 p.m.

Consultant and Tutor, Université TELUQ, As an Individual

Yvan Dutil

The mechanism is fairly simple. Instead of adding, you multiply. In compensatory systems since the 1950s, representatives have been added to reach a given number. In an equitable majority system, the method is as follows. Consider the Green party, for example, which is always the worst case ...