Evidence of meeting #30 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was yukon.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kirk Cameron  As an Individual
Peter Becker  As an Individual
Gerald Haase  Green Party of Canada-Yukon
David Brekke  As an Individual
John Streicker  As an Individual
Duane Aucoin  As an Individual
Jimmy Burisenko  As an Individual
Linda Leon  As an Individual
William Drischler  As an Individual
Yuuri Daiku  As an Individual
Corliss Burke  As an Individual
Gordon Gilgan  As an Individual
Charles Clark  As an Individual
Mary Ann Lewis  As an Individual
Robert Lewis  As an Individual
Sarah Wright  As an Individual
Jean-François Des Lauriers  As an Individual
Richard Price  As an Individual
François Clark  As an Individual
Astrid Sidaway-Wolf  As an Individual
Shelby Maunder  Executive Director, BYTE- Empowering Youth Society
John McKinnon  Former Senior Adviser on Electoral Reform, Yukon Government, As an Individual
Élaine Michaud  Representative, New Democratic Party Yukon federal riding association
Donald Roberts  As an Individual
Michael Lauer  As an Individual
Lauren Muir  As an Individual
Colin Whitlaw  As an Individual
Brook Land-Murphy  As an Individual
Mary Amerongen  As an Individual
Samuel Whitehouse  As an Individual
Paul Davis  As an Individual
Michael Dougherty  As an Individual

September 26th, 2016 / 3:30 p.m.

David Brekke As an Individual

Good afternoon, everyone.

I would first like to say thank you to the Kwanlin Dün First Nation and the Ta’an Kwäch’än Council for hosting this event on their traditional land, and to the Parliament of Canada for giving us the opportunity to submit our thoughts on reforming our country's electoral system.

As you may know, our current system, often called first past the post, is in dire need of revision. Essentially, it makes it possible for a party that won a minority of the possible votes to form a government, and sometimes a majority government—in fact, a good deal of the time a majority government—that can impose its will despite the fact that the majority of the citizenry voted against it. The only voters who have an effect on the formation of the elected governing body are the voters who voted for the winner of their riding.

It doesn't have to be that way. All votes could count. A majority of first world nations, with the United States and Great Britain being notable exceptions, have replaced this less than democratic system with systems designed to more accurately reflect the will of the majority of their citizens.

The system I am submitting for consideration would go a very long way toward redressing the current unfairness of first past the post and yet would be simple in nature. Fundamentally, the number of ridings would be cut in half by joining adjacent ridings.

Maybe before I go any further, that was a major focus of the responses I received from people, that we don't want any more politicians; that you get so many in there, and then nobody has any effect; please, no more politicians.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Except for the members on this committee.

3:30 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:30 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

Sorry: yes, okay.

The number of ridings would be cut in half by joining adjacent ridings, so we'd end up with paired ridings, but the number of representatives from the overall area would remain the same. One candidate would be elected as a result of a preferential ballot count for the riding. The second would then be chosen from the remaining candidates to reflect the percentage of votes won by the political parties running in that electoral area.

I'd just like to say that the goal of this preferential ridings proportional system is to use inclusion and connection to build community into governance. I don't know of anybody who wouldn't like to see that. It is my hope that this new combination system is helpful to the special committee in designing Canada's future system. This preferential ridings proportional system is PRP. PRP is a hybrid system with desirable aspects of several systems. It has ridings, and it has preferential voting to select the most wanted candidate in each riding and also the party for proportional representation.

Reorganization is needed for implementing this system, but I think it's very simplified by using the present boundary lines and election structure. It would fit relatively easily into the present electoral structure that we have, which I think is a great benefit.

I wasn't able to get our Chief Electoral Officer to respond to me, but if you would like to put it forward, I'd certainly appreciate that. The question of what we could save here, in time and cost, will come later.

If we now look at the first handout, it's the 2008 election results for the Ottawa electoral area. Applying this system to those results in 2008, the number of effective voters—people who could point to a member that they elected—went from 47% to 91%. That's without their second- or third-choice votes, which we now have, or would have.

Does everybody have the example of Ottawa to look at?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

It's in the process of being translated. Until it's available in both official languages, we can't distribute it to the committee members.

3:35 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

Right. Okay, thanks. I put it in your email, but I couldn't translate it into French. I'm sorry.

In the 2008 Ottawa election results, using the current first-past-the-post system, we dealt with six riding seats in Ottawa. The popular vote was Conservatives 39%, Greens 8%, Liberals 36%, and NDP 16%. Sorry to give you all these numbers. At any rate, this is what we ended up with. The Conservatives won three seats, so they got 50% of the representation with 38% of the vote. The Greens, with 8%, got zero. The Liberals, with 36%, received two, so they ended up with 33%, which is pretty close. The NDP received one, and they were very close, with 16% to 17%.

The total effective voters at that time was 47%. That means 47% of the voters could point to somebody that their vote helped to elect. And that's voters, not eligible voters. Those are the people who went out and voted.

Now, how are the proportional seats won using the PRP system, the preferential ridings proportional system? I've asked if it's simple enough. I hope you're going to find it simple enough, but you might not. I'm sure you'll let me know if it isn't. The electoral area of Ottawa had six seats, each seat to represent 16.7% of the vote. Instead of the six riding seats, by pairing the ridings we end up with three riding seats plus three proportional seats for Ottawa. There is no change with the popular vote, but since we only have three ridings now, two riding seats would have been won by the Conservatives and one by the Liberals. We have three proportional seats left, so the Conservatives now have 33% of their votes represented with two seats out of six, and the Liberals have 17% of their votes with one out of six seats: fair enough? The representation was 33% and 17% respectively for them.

What we're trying to do here is to give meaning to the people whose vote is not yet represented. For the unrepresented votes remaining, the Conservatives would have 5%, the Greens 8%, the Liberals 19%, and NDP 16.18%, not quite enough for a seat. We look, first of all, at fully supported proportional seats. There would only be one fully supported proportional seat, and that would be by the Liberals. When they receive their seat, what's the percentage of unrepresented votes remaining? Well, it's 5.6%, 8%, 3%, and 16%, not—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We're running out of time a bit.

3:40 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

Oh, no kidding: already.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I do have a question, though. Under your system, the Conservatives get two instead of three because they don't get any proportional seats. For the Greens....

I don't quite understand. I know the question period is for the other members, but what's the difference between fully supported proportional seats and partially supported proportional seats?

3:40 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

They have 16.7% of the vote. For instance, in the electoral area of Ottawa, we have six ridings. With six ridings, it's 16.7% of the vote that each member would be representing.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Okay.

We'll get to the questions from members after we hear from Mr. Streicker for 10 minutes.

3:40 p.m.

John Streicker As an Individual

Thank you.

To those of you on the committee who are new to the Yukon,

welcome.

To those of you who are returning, welcome back. I know your stay here will be very short, but I hope it is productive.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that we're on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dün First Nation and the Ta’an Kwäch’än Council.

My name is John Streicker, and I'm speaking to you as a Yukoner and a Canadian citizen. By way of introduction, I'm the past president of the Green Party of Canada. I've run twice here in federal elections in the Yukon, representing the Green Party of Canada. I recently served a term as a Whitehorse city councillor alongside Kirk Cameron, who you heard from just a moment ago. Currently I'm nominated as the Liberal candidate for the upcoming territorial election. I was also one of the first members of Fair Vote Yukon when it began.

I'm sharing this background with you, but I'm not here to represent any particular partisan point of view. I'm here first and foremost, as I said, as a citizen of Canada and the Yukon.

I would like to thank you for the important and, I would say, critical work you are undertaking to consider the issue of electoral reform. Thank you as well for coming north of 60 to the Yukon today but also to the NWT and Nunavut coming up. As northerners, we really appreciate that you take an interest in our perspectives.

An opportunity to shape and improve Canada's voting system does not come around very often. Therefore, I would also like to acknowledge the significance of the makeup of your committee. I note that it is not a reflection of the seats in Parliament. Rather, it is in some way a reflection of the popular vote from the last federal election. I know it is not precisely proportional, but it is not lost on those of us who take an interest that the committee's composition nods to the idea of proportionality.

I suspect that you take your collective role as a committee seriously, and that is only right. I would indeed hope that you do not rest on the fact that you have proportionality in your composition. I encourage you to go further: to think, deliberate, and represent, and ultimately to propose, beyond the normal constraints of your partisan stripes—of all of our partisan stripes. Designing a strong electoral system for Canada deserves that you think as Canadian MPs first and as partisan MPs much further down the road.

I believe strongly in the democratic process, warts and all. As such, I firmly believe that the design of our electoral system should come blended from the diverse views of all Canadians. We don't always agree, but when we respectfully share that diversity, I think we have stronger outcomes.

When I referenced a strong electoral system for Canada, I used the word “strong” and not the word “best”. It's very specific. I don't believe any voting system can accommodate all issues and concerns. I do think our current electoral system can and should be improved. How do we make sure our system is fair, straightforward, and inclusive? How do we use the system to capture the intention of the voters as well as possible?

In recent decades, our world has grown, shrunk, and become more diverse. I think this is reflected in how people vote. We vote for a party and a leader, we vote on a range of issues, and we still vote for the local person. This is the single clearest reason, in my opinion, to move to proportional representation.

I do not believe proportional representation solves everything. There will still be strategic voting, but not as much. There will still be vote-splitting, but not as much. I think proportional representation is most important because it will encourage people to vote for what they believe in. I can't stress how important I believe this to be. It is important both because it will generate more voting and more engagement—I think we will have more people voting—and because it will create a closer representation of the intention of voters.

Having said that I believe in a grassroots process to generate Canada's system and that I personally support proportionality, I now come to the main reason I am here to speak to you today.

By the way, I heard the earlier presentations. I recognize that I will be repeating some things that were said, but emphasis is good.

As a riding, the Yukon has only about one third the number of citizens that the average Canadian riding has. Northwest Territories has slightly more, and Nunavut has slightly less—I think it may be the smallest riding by citizenry in the country. I would have to check on P.E.I. to be sure.

On the other hand, the three northern territories make up 40% of Canada's land mass. Representation takes on a whole new meaning when communities are so far apart. You could ask Larry or your other colleagues from NWT and Nunavut, and they will tell you that in the north we think of ourselves as communities. We will talk about the Yukon, but really, how we interconnect is as communities. You have to imagine how hard it is to talk to your citizens over that kind of distance.

One of the things that we share and in some ways appreciate, as northerners, is that we are far away from Ottawa. This brings me to my main point. No matter what system you ultimately propose, please do not lose local representation for the north.

I will just state for the record that it is my understanding of the Constitution, although I am guessing you are all aware, that we have one MP per territory, according to the Constitution Act of 1975, for here and NWT, and the Nunavut Act of 1993. Further, the number of MPs for a province or territory shall not be less than the number of senatorial seats, and we also have one senator from each of the territories. Yet it could be possible, under some proportional systems, that a non-local person could be chosen to represent some ridings. At all costs, I urge you to design and recommend Canada's electoral system so that this is not the case here. This would go hard against the growth and development of the territories, the history of us. I believe it would also contradict the spirit and intent of our land claims and self-government agreements.

It is avoidable. There are many ways to achieve proportionality or near proportionality while still maintaining local representation for those ridings that strongly identify as stand-alone. I look over to Mr. Cullen; his riding might also think in this way.

In all likelihood, the preferred solution will be a made-in-Canada blended approach. Maybe it will utilize suggestions put forth by Jean-Pierre Kingsley, or maybe it will be based on the system proposed by Dave Brekke, Yukon's own electoral reform advocate.

For a moment, I will just try to give you the example of here. If we used Dave's PRP system here, we would see that there are many ridings.... For example, just across the bridge here, we have Riverdale North and Riverdale South, but really, they think of themselves as Riverdale. You could have two representatives from there: one chosen by first past the post or preferential ballot, and another chosen as a proportional representative from that local list. I listened to your questions earlier, and I don't believe you have to sacrifice local representation for proportionality.

We also have one riding in the far north of the Yukon called Vuntut Gwitchin, and we would never want that riding to lose its identity.

I will close out my remarks to the committee. I'm happy to discuss through questions the potential details of a blended made-in-Canada system. My main points are for a system derived from Canadian citizens, with proportionality, while maintaining local representation, for distinct distant ridings.

When Minister Monsef facilitated an electoral reform discussion in this very room one month ago, she affectionately called us all democracy geeks. I will think of you that way affectionately as well. I'm happy to wear that moniker because, as she put it, democracy can't be taken for granted.

Thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much.

We'll go now to Ms. Romanado for five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Thank you so much.

Thank you to our two presenters for being here today.

As I mentioned in the previous panel, I too would like to acknowledge that we are meeting on the official territory of the Ta’an Kwäch’än Council and the Kwanlin Dün First Nation. I'd like to thank the citizens of the Yukon who are here today for coming out. I know that not everyone is a democracy geek, as you'd like to call us, so thank you for being here.

Mr. Brekke, we don't have a copy of your submission because it hasn't been translated, so I don't have in front of me the exact information. I may ask you some questions that would be answered in the document.

In your PRP model, it's essentially a mixed member proportional where the local candidate, the local MP, is elected using a preferential ballot, and then there is a list candidate. I want to make sure I understand....

They're not a list candidate?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

No. All the candidates who are elected come from being candidates in the election.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Okay. Let's take my riding and a neighbouring riding as an example. You squish them together and it's a new riding, right? We have an election. We have an MP elected. Between the other candidates that ran for election in the super riding, the two together, we would then choose somebody from there who would be the proportional candidate MP. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

Yes. We first of all get an idea of what parties should be represented, how much, and we take away a percentage from the seats that they have already won, because those votes are represented.

We're trying to give representation to votes. The winner of a riding seat would be the candidate from that party who received the best reception in the election.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

So we keep the first past the post, and then we take.... For that one, the one who got the best representation, he or she gets elected, and then the other candidates—

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

No, but they aren't elected by first past by the post. They're elected preferentially—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Preferential, sorry.

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

—and actually a Condorcet preferential. To give an example, with five candidates you get a point for every time you are chosen ahead of another candidate. A first-choice ballot would be worth four points, because they came ahead of four people. The second would be three; the third, two; the fourth, one; and the fifth one would be zero. That could affect the way people vote. People could vote for their first choice.

The votes are of equal value. If you look at this vote, with five members, the vote is worth 10 points, which is four plus three plus two plus one. If a person were to vote just first choice, and many people like to do that, then that's four out of 10 points gone. There are six points left to split among the other four candidates. If they pick first and last, then there would be only three, and they get two points each instead of one and a half.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

I get how you pick the constituency MP. My question is more about the other MP, who came from the list of the other candidates who ran. Is it possible that the candidate who ends up getting selected is the one that people didn't vote for?

I'm just curious, because not picking someone usually means it's because you don't want them to represent you. You might end up still with somebody as your list MP, as I call them, that you didn't want. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

It's not a list. They win their seat by the election. Say there are between two—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

It's the person who's runner-up, basically? Is that what this is?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

David Brekke

No, not necessarily. The proportional seats represent the electoral area. Every riding in that electoral area has some voting results, and it's taken from there on a percentage basis how the candidate from that party did, and how that other candidate from that other party over there did, but the party wins the seat, and the candidate with the most votes or the best representation wins the seat, and they win it with the help of all the other candidates of their same party. To me, it also gives meaning to people who don't win the election.