Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[John McKinnon]

I served four terms on the Yukon Legislative Assembly during the really incredibly interesting times, challenging times, trying to find a method of obtaining responsible government and settling the land claim. They were both cut from the same cloth. It was really devolution. It was devolution to the first nations so they could govern their own affairs and devolution to the rest of Yukoners so they could govern their affairs.

Many of us were meeting constantly with the first nation leadership. I was the first elected member of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to sit on the land claim committee. Originally it was bilateral. The first nations said they were only going to have the federal government; that's who they were dealing with. So there was a group of us, young members of the legislature, meeting with the young members of the first nation leadership, saying, “This can't happen. Under the Yukon Act, we have administrative control of all the areas you're interested in—education, health, welfare, game. We have to be at the table.” Finally they relented, and we all sat at the table together.

When you saw the intelligence and negotiating capabilities of these young first nation leaders, several of them now Order of Canada members—I'm thinking particularly of David Joe, who was the lead legal adviser for the first nations—you just knew that you didn't have to talk about the Maori system of government any longer and first nations having assured seats. You knew that these people were going to be able and capable of winning seats in their ridings, particularly if they had an edge where they had a slight majority, or like in Old Crow, where they had a heavy majority in a riding.

So we kind of dismissed that idea, because we saw that they could enter through the front door, which has happened in the Yukon Legislative Assembly.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Did you give us the number of legislators who are aboriginal persons?

[John McKinnon]

I think this is kind of an aberration, but in this legislative assembly, I believe there are only two members now who are first nations, six members who are women, and 12 of us. I'm not there anymore, but 12 white guys.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

This is one of those times when I think it's appropriate to say that “us” is all of us, regardless of gender and race and all of that stuff that sometimes divides us.

Some of the electoral districts have aboriginal majorities. Have there been first nations members of the legislative assembly who have been elected in districts that have majority non-aboriginal populations? Has that demographic bridge been crossed?

[John McKinnon]

I'm trying to think; I know there have been members of aboriginal ancestry elected to the city council in Whitehorse.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

If you're having trouble recalling the exact details, that may be a good thing. It's signalling that to some degree the lines are not as sharp as they've been in the past.

[John McKinnon]

They aren't, because many members who have not been first nation have been elected to the legislative assembly out of where there are majority first nation districts. I'm just trying to think of the vice-versa.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Cullen now, please, for five minutes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I represent Skeena, just to the south of here, a very robust and powerful place for first nations people and politics, but perhaps I'll go to the national perspective. I'll start with Mr. McKinnon, and then we'll hear from Ms. Maunder.

You don't seem to have an aversion, Mr. McKinnon, to the idea of some level of proportionality in the federal system in Canada. Is that fair to say? You said something at the end, that you can imagine it for urban ridings—and I imagine suburban may be in that mix—but rural is where the challenge comes: remote, northern, vast ridings as big as the one we're in right now.

[John McKinnon]

I as a Canadian don't like the idea of a hybrid system. I don't want to see where northern ridings or large or territorial ridings, or perhaps even, knowing the history of P.E.I.... If there were some hybrid system of government in Canada, who would make the decision of who would be able to keep their first-past-the-post system and who would do proportional?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

In your statement, you said you could imagine it working in a proportional way at the urban or suburban level.

[John McKinnon]

Yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Your challenge comes when you get up to the....

Do you also have a hard time imagining there being that hybrid in Canada, where we have a model in front of us? The reason I ask that is because we have such a preponderance of weight on the geography in our system right now. As some witnesses have told us, that's the one value that's put in place on the current first-past-the-post system. It's all geography. That's fine in a place like this. Now we're seeing where the needle can move. That's the mandate of this committee, to look at reform and see, between just a purely geographical-type system to one that's proportional, where along the scale we move. We run into challenges when we get out to the remote, the larger, the northern ridings. Yet right now we don't balance votes very well across this country. Of 18 million cast in the last election, nine million went towards actually electing somebody. More than nine million didn't elect anybody. Some voters would say that their views aren't represented when they can't see their vote actually have any impact. In testimony earlier today, one of our witnesses said we need to give meaning to people's votes, significance to their votes.

You mentioned that you believed the ranked ballot was just tinkering around the edges. What did you mean?

[John McKinnon]

I just don't believe the ranked ballot is a proportional system of representation. I think it's a first-past-the-post system with some tinkering.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Maunder, I was just looking at the BYTE website here. Obviously the group's not focused on electoral reform with youth engagement. Do you yourself take a position on what kind of system would be preferential, particularly through the lens of the engagement of more young people in Canada being involved?

[Shelby Maunder]

I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking on behalf of all youth, but personally, I would like to vote in a system where I don't necessarily have to vote strategically. I don't want to vote out of fear for a government I don't want to have, I want to vote for the government that I do want to have.

I do think that the best way for that is the mixed member proportional representation. I think a lot of times turnout can be determined by the type of electoral system that we have, too, and I see that being a way to turn more youth out to the polls.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Sorry, I don't want to complete the sentence for you, but I want to connect it back. You'd see more youth turning out to the polls if they weren't having to vote against something or strategically? Is that the connection between the two?

[Shelby Maunder]

Yes, I think so. It's also seeing their voice heard. As you said, nine million people who voted in the last election didn't elect the government at all.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

To be clear on that, they didn't elect anyone, opposition or—

[Shelby Maunder]

Anyone, yes, it's true.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's not about electing government alone.

I'm not sure if I have just a bit more time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have thirty seconds.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

This is the statement time, I guess.

I think your most salient point for me sitting on the committee is that engagement moment. If you have a young person where they have the practical application of the vote and that educational moment in a school—which 80%, 90%, 95% of our youth are in at the time of being 16, 17—we know that the patterns continue throughout the rest of life. If they vote at the first opportunity they can, anybody, they will overwhelmingly continue to vote the rest of their lives. If they miss that first moment, they overwhelmingly never vote again.

Thank you for being here. I thank all the presenters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for being here.

Ms. Maunder, you said that, in order to improve voter turnout among youth, it was necessary to reduce the barriers young voters face, such as having to prove their address and finding an accessible polling station. Polling stations could be set up on college and university campuses. I think that's something the committee should consider. If electoral reforms are made, that has to be among the values that factor into the decision-making.

I had been wondering what you thought the minimum voting age should be, but my colleague Ms. Romanado asked you, and it's 16.

I had another question, but you answered that one as well when you told us your age. No, I'm just kidding.

Are you aware of other countries where the voting age is 16?