Evidence of meeting #31 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was referendum.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I understand that. I heard you say it.
I asked a question about mandates, which at one point has been offered.... When parties run on a promise and you like the promise, you say they have a mandate to do it. When you don't like the promise, you say, “Oh, that was just one of many promises they don't have a mandate to do.”
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, I happen to agree with Gordon Gibson that this is probably the most fundamental constitutional question that we have, how we elect our representatives. When he listed his three constitutional quagmires that the Prime Minister should stay away from, this was number one on his list.
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
He is very familiar with citizens' assemblies, having been involved in the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform in British Columbia in 2004-05—
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Happily, we've brought constitutional experts before this committee and confirmed that the changes we're considering are not constitutional amendments.
Ms. Byford, I know you wanted to make one comment there. You had your hand up.
5:20 p.m.
B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
My brief comment is that when we were on the assembly, we were told that governments, provincial or federal, have the power to change the voting system any time they choose without consulting anyone.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
I think our current panel clearly illustrates the situation we're seeing in terms of this desire for electoral reform. On one hand, there's the desire to move towards a kind of proportional voting to reduce the gap between the number of seats and the percentage of votes each party receives in elections. It's a strong desire, especially from you. On the other hand, there's the issue of the links between MPs and their ridings. The Canadian federation has very large ridings. We've been told that a more proportional system would diminish the link between MPs and their constituents.
Elsewhere, there are a large number of proportional voting models. I don't think any two countries have exactly the same system. So we need to determine what the best model would be for us. I think it would be a model that combines the best of both.
So I'd like to consult each of you to find out what we should do in this regard. Do you think the system of transferable votes, which you have chosen for British Columbia, should apply across Canada? Would it be better to switch to a compensatory mixed member proportional system with lists by province? Should we consider leaving rural ridings as they are and creating very large ridings in cities by adding elements of proportional representation? Should we also consider creating a citizens' assembly that would deliberate on this?
I'd like each of you to respond, starting with Mr. Hodgson.
5:20 p.m.
Fair Voting BC
That's a good set of questions.
First of all, I would slightly object to the original characterization of making seats match votes on a party basis. That's not really what we're talking about. I'm reminded of that joke about gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law. This is what our charter is. Our charter says that each citizen is entitled to effective representation, and it really doesn't say anything at all about parties. That's a symptom of the mismatch that comes from an absence of representation.
In the ideal world, if you take all the voters and divide by the number of MPs—we have about 50,000 votes per MP—what should happen, in our view, for each citizen to be represented is for them to be able to elect their MP over however large a region is necessary for that to happen. If I'm in an area in northern Alberta where there's 70% support, I need one and a half current ridings to get my 50,000 votes. If I'm a Green Party candidate in Vancouver, I need about 10 ridings right now to get that support.
I think we need to honour that as much as possible, and in my view, STV does the best of job of that, the mutli-member districts.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC
Thank you.
I'd now like to hear from Ms. Byford and then Mr. Duncan.
5:25 p.m.
B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
When we were looking at it, we obviously had to consider the vast areas in northern B.C. We had speakers who came from those areas or sent us some form of communication about what they wanted. They wanted to be included in the same kind of process that the large populated areas in the south were. They didn't want to be separated, because they didn't want to be called second-class citizens.
When we decided that we were going to choose STV, one of the big things about STV was that if we had the two largest ridings up north combined, they would get two representatives, and those representatives would most likely represent two different parties, simply because the vote up there is almost evenly split. But by a slight margin, under the current system, one party took all the seats in both ridings. Therefore, almost 50% of the people were not represented.
5:25 p.m.
B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
It should translate across the provinces. How it would work in the territories I honestly can't say, because I have no experience.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
What I'm finding in a lot of this discussion is that we're really talking about the fact that people who do not vote for their member of Parliament are somehow not represented. I agree with Ms. Romanado: every MP I know is constantly trying to make their tent bigger. If they're not trying to make their tent bigger, it's shrinking. In my view, people are well represented by members of Parliament who are as close as possible to the communities they live in.
I gave an example for Vancouver Island, with Victoria being the large population. In my own riding, which is one-seventh the size of Germany and less accessible than one-seventh of Germany, with about 25 distinct communities, 90% of the population lives in essentially two of those communities. That's where the MPs would come from, so as for making ridings bigger, people are overestimating or underestimating the impact this will have on our rural areas.
5:25 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
I'm very pleased to see that so many people from Saanich—Gulf Islands made it all the way to Victoria.
I want to start by thanking all three of our witnesses,
I'm very glad to see my old friend John Duncan here, so if he says something you don't like, be nice.
I'm even happier to see Donna here.
Most of my questions, I have to say, are—
5:25 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
I know. We worked together on a lot of stuff, we really did, and I am very happy to see you.
I want to thank all three of you for your service to Canada, including the work you've done, Mr. Hodgson, for Fair Voting BC, and the work you've done, Diana, who has been selfless, and not because you're part of a salaried position. Diana is also, I am very honoured to say, one of my constituents.
In terms of the commitment you made, I want you to tell the room and my fellow MPs more about what you did after the citizens' assembly was over, in going out and talking about single transferable vote, all on your own time, and how much of that you did. I know this just because I have come to know you through this process.
5:25 p.m.
B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
When we discovered that the government had not made any provision for the education of our choice, a number of assembly members got together in person or over the telephone or through the Internet, whatever, and decided that those who could would try to overcome that deficiency. A referendum information office was set up, and they had a few leaflets, but you had to collect them and there were just two offices, one in Vancouver and one in Victoria. How many people can get to Vancouver or Victoria to pick up a pamphlet?
We had a number of people requesting that speakers come to talk to them about this and tell them why we had chosen and what we had chosen, so we decided that we would set up our own network, which we did. I was the person who received all the requests from the island area, and I would find speakers from the assembly, and sometimes we had volunteers; people who came from organizations like Fair Voting BC who were willing to join us in presentations, so we weren't quite the only ones, but we were doing it on our own time and money. I spent at least five days out of seven every week going somewhere. Some days I was out twice a day, in the morning and afternoon or afternoon and evening, speaking to different groups. On two occasions I was out three times speaking to people: morning, afternoon, and evening.
It was interesting. They had all sorts of questions and after one meeting in James Bay here in Victoria, an elderly gentleman came up to me and said his friend dragged him there because he had told him he was not going to vote for this newfangled system we're putting out. He said I had just changed his mind, so it was worth it.
5:30 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Diana, I want to ask you for advice. In some ways you are just saying if you were asked to go to a citizens' assembly in Ottawa, you wouldn't be able to do it, but in some ways all of us here, members of Parliament in the House of Commons, are a citizens' assembly in Ottawa. It just happens that we're elected as MPs.
What would you recommend we do, having had your experience in achieving consensus among 160-some people? I'm committed that the 12 of us here will achieve consensus. What's your best advice for how we should go about it?
5:30 p.m.
B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
You're the committee that the government struck, and you represent a majority of different opinions because you come from different kinds of parties. I would say the job is yours. We don't need a referendum.
5:30 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
To get to another point, which we have sometimes sloughed over as a committee, so forgive me—and I'll ask my grandfather to please forgive me—for making an observation. There's no doubt that when you elect a member of Parliament, the moment the election is over, that member of Parliament works for every constituent. If you call me for an immigration issue or a problem with a pension, I don't care how anyone voted. I go to work for them.
The issue is when we slough over the difference of who gets to form government. You may be very well represented by a member of Parliament who is either a government member or an opposition member, but if you go to them and say it's really important that the government that's created take action on climate change, and there's been a false majority that doesn't want to take action on climate change, people don't feel represented. The majority of Canadians can often feel unrepresented.
How would you differentiate between this very strong attachment we have to local representation and being attached to a riding in a local area and having proportionality?
