Evidence of meeting #31 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was referendum.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Keith Archer  Chief Electoral Officer, Elections BC
Craig Henschel  Member, BC Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
Antony Hodgson  Fair Voting BC
Diana Byford  B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform
John Duncan  As an Individual
William Russell  As an Individual
Laura Parker  As an Individual
Thomas Teuwen  As an Individual
Theodore Dixon  As an Individual
Katherine Putt  As an Individual
Michael Rosser  As an Individual
Shelagh Levey  As an Individual
Stephanie Ferguson  As an Individual
David Farmer  As an Individual
Adriane Carr  As an Individual
Joan Robinson  As an Individual
Richard Habgood  As an Individual
Diane Guthrie  As an Individual
Guy Laflam  As an Individual
Mehdi Najari  As an Individual
Mark Jeffers  As an Individual
Craig Carmichael  As an Individual
Jeremy Arney  As an Individual
Merran Proctor  As an Individual
Trevor Moat  As an Individual
David Charles  As an Individual
Larry Layne  As an Individual
Gregory Holloway  As an Individual
Robert Mackie  As an Individual
Sharon Gallagher  As an Individual
James Gallagher  As an Individual
Colin MacKinnon  As an Individual
Ned Taylor  As an Individual
Pedro Mora  As an Individual
John Bradbury  As an Individual
Derek Skinner  As an Individual
Alexis White  As an Individual
Nancy Cooley  As an Individual
Sean Murray  As an Individual
Francis Black  As an Individual
Samuel Slanina  As an Individual
Hunter Lastiwka  As an Individual
Roger Allen  As an Individual
Donald Scott  As an Individual
Martin Barker  As an Individual
Shari Lukens  As an Individual
Patricia Armitage  As an Individual
Katherine Armitage  As an Individual
John Amon  As an Individual
Kathleen Gibson  As an Individual
Natasha Grimard  As an Individual
Jordan Reichert  As an Individual
Harald Wolf  As an Individual
Jack Etkin  As an Individual
James Coccola  As an Individual
Bronwen Merle  As an Individual
Kym Thrift  As an Individual
Catus Brooks  As an Individual
Ken Waldron  As an Individual
Daniel Hryhorchuk  As an Individual
Tana Jukes  As an Individual
Ryder Bergerud  As an Individual
Michael Brinsmead  As an Individual
Dana Cook  As an Individual
Guy Dauncey  As an Individual
Patricia Lane  As an Individual
Jacob Harrigan  As an Individual
Martin Pratt  As an Individual
Tirda Shirvani  As an Individual
David Merner  As an Individual
John Fuller  As an Individual
Cooper Johnston  As an Individual
Cliff Plumpton  As an Individual
Mel McLachlan  As an Individual
Zoe Green  As an Individual

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Thank you so much.

Mr. Henschel, I did read your submission with great interest. I want to clear the air. I'm a member of Parliament who actually has no preconceived notion of what electoral system we should or shouldn't use. I'm blank. I'm listening to Canadians, and that's how I'm working in this.

There was a lot of information in here with hypotheses that using an STV system would address. You talk a bit about no more disappearing MPs. You talk about how magically things will be hunky-dory if we adopt STV. The reality is, when we become elected, we're no longer the Liberal member of Parliament; we're the member of Parliament. Regardless of whether someone voted for me or didn't vote for me, I'm still the member of Parliament for my riding, so when they come in the door I represent everyone equally. I don't even want to know if you voted for me, quite frankly, I just want to help you.

We sit about 140 days a year. Like you, we were sitting most of the summer. Unfortunately, we weren't there, but part of the job is to represent Canadians and be where we need to be.

Looking at it from a voter perspective, if there are multiple members of Parliament possibly from different parties working in the same riding, do you not think there's going to be severe competition? Do you honestly think that, if there is another member in the same riding I'm in, I'm not going to be withholding information about the needs of constituents, because the other member will want to make sure that they have that information for the next election. I'm just trying to think about the realities of politics and the impact on the citizens.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

A brief answer if you can.

4:30 p.m.

Member, BC Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform

Craig Henschel

STV works very well in Ireland for constituency services like that, and the TDs there seem to manage to act co-operatively to resolve those questions and important issues that the voters have.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

This has been a very good exchange. One of the reasons is, first of all, there's a big crowd in the audience and that is motivational, I think, for everybody, so thank you for being here. Also because we had as witnesses two individuals who have been involved in elections, electoral reform, on the ground in a practical way, and I think we've benefited greatly from that perspective.

We're going to take a five-minute break before we go to our next panel.

Thank you very much to the witnesses.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We are going to resume with the second panel.

We have three panellists: Antony Hodgson, from Fair Voting BC; Diana Byford, who is with the B.C. Citizens' Assembly; and our former colleague, the Honourable John Duncan.

Nice to see you again, Mr. Duncan.

We'll start with Mr. Antony Hodgson, for 10 minutes, please.

September 27th, 2016 / 4:40 p.m.

Antony Hodgson Fair Voting BC

Hello. Welcome to Victoria.

On behalf of Fair Voting BC and our thousands of supporters across the province, I'm very honoured to have this opportunity to speak to you this afternoon. I especially want to thank you for all the time you are taking, the travelling you're going through. Your efforts have the potential to make an incredibly positive long-term change for our democracy.

In my comments I'd like to make three key points. First, our existing voting system is simply not compatible with our democratic ideals or with our national purpose and aspirations as embodied in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Second, the B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform was both thoughtful and wise in recommending that we adopt the single transferrable vote. Finally, the rural-urban proportional representation model that we co-developed with Fair Vote Canada combines the best features of STV with well-liked features of MMP and we seriously recommend that you consider it.

Our charter guarantees us two key rights: equal treatment and effective representation. But our voting system discriminates against many, with the result that over half the voters have not voted for their MP. According to the political theorist Hanna Pitkin, the term “representation” is actually quite well defined. It has three key components: authorization, acting in the best interests of the one represented, and accountability. I know these are all important to you.

Our voting system delivers on none of these. A voter who has not voted for his or her MP did not authorize that MP to act. The MP will routinely vote against the voter's wishes, and the voter has no means to hold the MP to account since the voter has already voted against that person to no effect. Such a voter is therefore not represented in a meaningful way in legislative matters, which is an MP's principal role. From this denial of representation flow all the symptoms of political dysfunction that many previous witnesses have articulated.

What would it mean for us to take these charter rights seriously? Ironically, even in our pre-charter days, from Canada's beginnings, our voting system was intended to ensure that, as Sir John A. Macdonald put it, “different interests, classes and localities should be fairly represented”. When these intentions are demonstrably not being met, we must update our system.

As Chief Justice McLachlin reminded us in the Saskatchewan electoral boundaries reference case, the Canadian tradition is “one of evolutionary democracy moving in uneven steps”—unfortunately—“toward the goal of universal suffrage and more effective representation”.

She defined for us in that case and in a previous one what our charter right to vote means, saying that it cannot be less than to guarantee to citizens their full democratic rights in the government of the country.

She goes on to say, “Ours is a representative democracy. Each citizen is entitled to be represented in government. Representation comprehends the idea of having a voice in the deliberations of government”.

One cannot have a voice without having an MP that one supports and voted for to be that voice.

As the political scientist David Plotke said, “The opposite of representation is exclusion”, and exclusion is not a Canadian ideal.

Once we understand the charter imperative of authentic representation, we can appreciate the wisdom of the B.C. Citizens' Assembly in recommending STV, which is widely regarded as maximizing voter choice. Uniquely amongst the various proportional voting systems, STV asks voters to endorse specific candidates and only gives a vote to a candidate if a voter specifically names them. With STV, the vast majority of voters will satisfy the three conditions of being represented: They have explicitly authorized their MP by naming him or her; their MP will be the one who the voter believes is most likely to act in their best interests; and they can hold their MP accountable in the next election, because withholding their vote directly decreases the MP's support and increases another's.

In our submission, we point out that STV has the highest direct representation score of all the systems considered, on the order of about 90% or above. Despite this unmatched strength of STV, some are concerned that the threshold for election can be too high and that the districts can be too large in the more rural areas.

The rural-urban PR model combines multi-member ridings in the more populated areas with a few single member ridings where deemed necessary, and adds a small pop-up layer to decrease the threshold for election. These features substantially address these concerns.

In summary, we must adopt proportional voting to satisfy our charter rights to equality and effective representation. The citizens' assembly recommended STV because it maximizes direct representation of voters and does the most to strengthen the link between constituents and their MPs. The rural-urban model is highly flexible, scores well on all measures, and can be refined over time, staying responsive to voters through the electoral boundaries commission process.

These proportional models, among others, can deliver on the government's promise to make every vote count and the minister's call for an electoral system that provides a stronger link between the democratic will of Canadians and election results.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Mr. Hodgson.

We'll go now to Ms. Byford.

4:50 p.m.

Diana Byford B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform

Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, you are on a journey that I have already undertaken. In 2004 I was privileged to be a member of the B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform. As you've heard previously, 160 ordinary citizens randomly selected from every riding in this province, including two first nations people, came together to examine our current first-past-the-post system to see if it met the needs of the people or if it needed to be changed.

We worked for 11 months. The first three months were an intensive learning phase. We were taught about various different systems, how they worked, the pros and cons, and where they were used in the world. We also learned about how demographics and geographics play an important part and can have a large impact on outcomes. People from other countries came to tell us about how their systems worked for them and spoke of consequences when they had, in some cases, changed their systems.

Following the learning phase, we went into public meetings. We had 50 public meetings held across the province where panels of five to 12 assembly members attended. People came in large numbers to speak about what was important to them. Some came and spoke about specific systems, some about what they hoped a new system would change or provide, and some even came to say that no change was needed.

We also received and read over 1,600 written submissions, more than most commissions get. Our understanding was that between 100 and 200 is more usual, so that just goes to show the passion that was out there when we were working on the assembly.

When these meetings were over, the assembly gathered again for a weekend to correlate and exchange the information that we had garnered and to put forward the names of some speakers who it was felt should address the assembly as a whole. We began our fall deliberations by hearing from nine of the recommended speakers selected after consultation by a small group of assembly members from the information that had been provided. They represented a variety of proposals, most advocating for some form of change, but one spoke passionately about the current first-past-the-post system.

We then re-examined the various systems and quickly narrowed them down to the only two that seemed to offer the best solution to the conclusions we had reached from our learnings, from the hearings, and from the written submissions. We spent the next two weekends designing these systems, MMP and STV, to fit the needs of this province. Having done that, we deliberated on the merits of both and after voting, we recommended that the electorate be offered BC-STV in a provincial referendum to be held in May 2005 at the next provincial election.

You've heard some of this before, but I know it doesn't hurt to bring it back to you.

The B.C. government had not made any provision for public education on our choice, so a number of assembly members who were able to took it upon themselves to do so. Not everyone, of course, could do this. It was done on our own time and money. We spoke to groups and organizations. We debated sometimes and we provided answers to many, many questions. This we did from December 2004, when our report was delivered to the legislature, until the referendum in May 2005. My last speaking engagement was the evening before that election.

The government had two 60% requirements, which you've also heard about: 60% of the votes cast in favour, and 60% of the ridings at 50% plus one. The results were: votes cast, 57.69%, ridings, 77 out of 79 or 92%, yet it was declared to have failed. My personal opinion is that the Government of B.C. failed the people. I also believe that our success in reaching these numbers came from the fact that this recommended change came from ordinary citizens as opposed to political groups or institutions. I know you are a political group. I apologize. No insult is intended.

Even though I know there is no perfect system, I still believe that we offered the people of B.C. the one system that best suited the concerns we had learned about. People have said that STV is not a proportional system because it uses ranked ballots. However, not only is it proportional, as I know you are aware, but it is the only system that gives voters the ability to elect all MPs or MLAs while political parties do not have any say.

I would like to finish by saying that although we were taught by professors and other experts, we were not led by them. We reached our own conclusions through many hours of discussion and deliberation among ourselves.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Ms. Byford.

We'll go now to the Honourable John Duncan, for 10 minutes, please.

4:55 p.m.

John Duncan As an Individual

Thank you very much. I'm pleased to be here today.

I'm not here as an expert in electoral systems, but did serve as an MP on northern Vancouver Island for 19 years. I believe I'm an expert in the challenges of representing a large rural riding, so that's what I'd like to discuss today.

Many of the electoral systems that you've been discussing require electoral districts to get larger, in some cases, much larger. I want to impress upon you the very real impact this has on the relationship between voters and the people who represent them. Today I drove two and a half hours so that I could deliver this five-minute speech and answer some of your questions. When I'm done here, I will repeat the drive home. This is very typical of the kind of thing I had to do regularly to juggle community events in my riding.

For one Parliament I also represented the entire Sunshine Coast on the adjacent mainland. Attending a meeting in Sechelt or Gibsons, or both, would require two ferries each way and an overnight stay, and essentially ate up two days; or else I would fly in a small commuter aircraft that could not be relied on and which left me without a vehicle. The most reliable travel was to fly to Vancouver from Campbell River or Courtenay, rent a car and take the Gibsons ferry from Horseshoe Bay, and return. Add to this the eight-hour-plus travel from my riding to Ottawa and you begin to get a glimpse of the challenges that large ridings present.

I could provide a level of service in opposition that the time constraints of the burden of being in government would have made impossible. Please do not underestimate the significance of this. A member of Parliament must meet constituents where they live, and see and hear first-hand the problems they're dealing with. I have the experience of having an idea discussed at a community event in Port McNeill be subsequently implemented in a federal budget. Larger ridings will only lessen these opportunities.

Multi-member ridings also present a problem. I very much agree with what you had to say on that front, Sherry. If the seven ridings on Vancouver Island were merged into one seven member riding with half of the population in Victoria, what are the chances that someone in Port Hardy will have their concerns taken seriously? It is possible, even probable, that most or all MPs would be from one corner of the riding. Proportionality for parties would be improved, but only by sacrificing proportionality for communities.

This is the consequence of living in a big country, and there is no country in the world whose experience can guide us. Looking at countries with full democracies, as defined by the Democracy Index, which is produced by The Economist magazine, we see there is no geographically large country with a proportional system in place. The largest fully democratic country with a proportional system to make the list is Spain, which has an area that is 5% the size of Canada. The bottom line is that size matters, and so does our political culture, our regional tensions, and all the things that make Canada unique. The fact is you can't predict how a new electoral system will affect Port Hardy or any other community in Canada. That is why you must proceed with caution and make sure you have the buy-in of an electorate that fully understands what is being proposed as an alternative to our current electoral system.

I do believe we have achieved an incredible country with strong democratic roots, and major change should not go forward without the blessing of a referendum. Canada has the highest ranking on the Democracy Index of any large country identified as being a full democracy. This is not to be sneezed at.

Every province contemplating major electoral changes carried out a referendum: B.C., Ontario, and P.E.I.

Politicians are elected to make many decisions, but not about how they they are hired. This is a conflict of interest. Gordon Gibson, the former B.C. Liberal leader and former adviser to former prime minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau, by the way, stated this very well in The Globe and Mail on Saturday, September 17, just 10 days ago. Gordon Gibson represents in many ways the Liberal label in British Columbia over the last 30 years. He has engaged in political and public discourse for that entire time. His advice is valued highly by British Columbians, and this committee should also value his sage advice.

That concludes my remarks.

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

We'll go to Mr. DeCourcey to launch a round of questions, please.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you to our three presenters. Mr. Hodgson and Ms. Byford, thank you for the tremendous amount of work done by the Citizen's Assembly. It's quite a fascinating process to read through, and I commend you and all your colleagues on that process. Mr. Duncan, thank you for your service to Canada and for your testimony here today.

I want to explore with Ms. Byford and other members here the idea of engaging Canadians in the electoral process, those Canadians who may not usually take part in the process. I will preface that by digging into some comments that you made, Mr. Hodgson, in paraphrasing our chief justice talking about Canada's democratic pursuits sometimes and even toward the idea of universal suffrage. In that, I can see the idea of engaging more Canadians, those who don't usually vote in the electoral process, as a worthy cause.

Ms. Byford, of the 161 members, including your chair, Jack Blaney, who sat on the citizens' assembly, do you recall if there were there any there who weren't regular voters?

5 p.m.

B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform

Diana Byford

We did ask the question, do you vote? I can't remember anybody who didn't put their hand up.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Okay. You had a group that was engaged in electoral politics and in the electoral process.

5:05 p.m.

B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform

Diana Byford

They were engaged inasmuch as they went and voted, yes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Were there conversations that took place during the citizens' assembly about how electoral change could help enfranchise those who don't come out to vote?

5:05 p.m.

B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform

Diana Byford

There were a number of discussions around that, which came up throughout the period. There were questions that we asked during our learning sessions. There were questions that came up during our public meetings and in the fall in our deliberations when we were trying to sort through everything that we had learned, yes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Could you give us a little flavour of what those conversations entailed?

5:05 p.m.

B.C. Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform

Diana Byford

We're going back 12 years now, and it's a little hard to go back to all the individual conversations. All I can say is that we decided that whether we changed the system or not, we would have no guarantee it would increase the number of people who voted. That was a question beyond our mandate, and we decided that we would get on with our job and hope that the change of system might encourage more people to vote.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hodgson, on the proposal that you put forward as part of Fair Voting BC's proposal, is there consideration in there as to how electoral reform will better engage Canadians who don't see themselves acting in the electoral process currently?

5:05 p.m.

Fair Voting BC

Antony Hodgson

I think so, and it's primarily through the mechanisms that Craig Henschel spoke to earlier, which is to ensure that as many voters as possible are represented by an MP of their choosing. I was at Don Davies' town hall last weekend, and Vancouver councillor Andrea Reimer was speaking. She was talking about how when she was a young woman she was heavily engaged. She talked about being involved as early as kindergarten in a nap strike. That was her first introduction to protest, but as she grew into a young woman she was engaged in a number of political struggles. At one point, she got to the age where she was allowed to vote, and she did all this studying about who she should vote for. She started having conversations with her friends. These were all activist friends, and people devoting dozens of hours per week to political causes. She was shocked to realize she was the only one who was planning to vote. She asked why. They said it didn't matter, and that their vote didn't get listened to. They were not likely to get the person who was going to take their point of view, so why bother, because activism was the most effective way to participate in politics.

That is a corrosive message to send to our young people.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Is it fair to say there are perhaps two reasons why people don't go to vote and they sometimes get conflated? We've heard plenty of testimony for me to agree there are people who feel their vote doesn't count. They cannot elect the person they would like to elect.

There is also a sentiment out there of “I'm not going to vote because my vote doesn't count, because every politician is the same and all the parties are the same.” It speaks to a larger democratic malaise that we should be attuned to as representatives of the electorate.

5:05 p.m.

Fair Voting BC

Antony Hodgson

Absolutely. Again, I think it all fundamentally comes back to the same issue of a lack of representation. As I am sure you've heard from many other people, with the way we do nominations in this country, we end up putting one person forward from each party. On average, that is biased in favour of the “male, pale, and stale” stereotype. I am very pleased to see that this is not true here at this table, but statistically there certainly is that bias.

I think young people in particular are not represented in government as much as they should be.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Mr. Reid, go ahead, please.