Evidence of meeting #31 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was referendum.
9:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you. It sounds like you have a very well-thought-out system there.
Go ahead, Mr. Shirvani.
9:25 p.m.
Tirda Shirvani As an Individual
Good evening.
Of all the battles we have fought for democracy in this country, this is the most important.
I know first-hand what it's like for your vote not to count. I used to live in Saanich, north of UVic, and no matter how many times I voted, the Reform/Canadian Alliance/Conservative MP Gary Lunn would get elected and re-elected. My vote never counted. I could not persuade my friends to vote, because their vote never counted.
I support proportional representation, because it takes the power away from political parties and gives it back to the electorate.
The minority and coalition governments elected through proportional representation and making decisions by consensus end up making better decisions. Throughout history, the best concessions we have been able to extract out of the government have been out of minority governments: universal health care, minimum wage, old age penson plan. On the other hand, majority governments take us for granted.
No more first past the post; no more one-man dictation by Stephen Harper; no more omnibus bills.
I would say no to a referendum, because masses could very easily be persuaded to vote against their own interests. In British Columbia, the referendum on electoral reform worked for all the wrong reasons.
I would say yes to proportional representation, and no to a referendum.
Thank you very much.
9:25 p.m.
David Merner As an Individual
Thank you.
My name is David Merner. I ran for the Liberals in the last federal election in Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, the next riding over. I'm also the national vice-president of Fair Vote Canada, but I'm here speaking as a citizen.
I would, though, like to ask this committee to really consider how you're going to come to a unanimous compromise on the issues that have been raised today. It's not an easy thing. To the Liberals, I say that we campaigned on real change, and that means something. We also campaigned on making every vote count, and that means something as well.
To me it's clear. Alternative vote is not good enough, even though we passed a resolution at our 2014 national convention in favour of alternative vote. We have to do better because we campaigned on something different. We campaigned on making every vote count. We also campaigned on real change. AV is not real change; it's still a first-past-the-post system.
As Liberals we have to look at an alternative. We have an Atlantic caucus that's going to lose seats, right? It's going to be very hard to convince that caucus to vote in favour of proportional representation which does represent real change. What do we do about that?
To the Conservatives, though, who are giggling over there, this is a chance, actually—and not you, Nathan, I know. On the referendum issue, you're making a good point. This is a democracy. We need legitimacy, but let's do it in a fair way. Let's do it after we've tested the current system. Let's ensure that we know that Canadians are having an informed vote.
If you do it before, even Margaret Thatcher said referendums were the perfect forum for demagogues. Listen to Margaret Thatcher. She got it right. Have it after two elections when Canadians really know what they're in for. Then we'll have a real democratic vote because it will be an informed and fair vote.
Last, to the NDP folks who campaigned on MMP, I ask you to put a little water in your wine. There's an excellent compromise that Fair Vote Canada has put forward. It's the Kingsley model. It's a rural-urban proportional representation model, an excellent compromise for this committee.
I challenge you all to come up with a unanimous report. We'd like that from you. Everybody in this room would like that from you.
Thank you.
9:30 p.m.
John Fuller As an Individual
I am John Fuller. I am supporting proportional representation. I came to Canada in 1957 through the famous Pier 21 in Halifax, and obtained my citizenship then. My grandfather came to Canada in 1916 where he homesteaded in Saskatchewan, and became a Canadian citizen. He lived in Regina in 1922 when a referendum was held on the forming of the CCF, and he voted in favour of that. He was also a member of the wheat board.
The reason I'm speaking is that I didn't have a company pension, and the government encouraged us to have our own pension scheme, which I did very successfully, but it was in the trust funds. When Mr. Harper came in, the trust funds were destroyed, and I lost half of my pension. Instead of living comfortably at the age of 86, which I am, I'm on a reduced income. I feel that if we had proportional representation, this wouldn't have happened because I would have been properly represented.
The other thing that comes to mind is that in Victoria, in the capital region, our access to drinking water is being threatened by a private foreign corporation. I feel that every Canadian has the right to water. In that regard, there are many people on a limited income. Often they are widows. I've always supported women. They have to choose between paying for water and paying for food on a reduced income. That is the other main point that I would like to make.
9:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Do you feel proportional representation would have mitigated a lot of policies that have, in some cases, harmed people's interests?
9:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I do feel that because it would give us...then the whole country would be responsible for these attitudes instead of the private corporations.
9:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Just on the referendum, I would support a referendum, but I would challenge the media who are under threat at the moment to come up to the plate and give a proper representation as to what proportional representation is. I think they would maybe do it, maybe the independent media.
I got here by accident. Tonight I was down at the CBC show just down the road and I was walking by.
9:35 p.m.
Cooper Johnston As an Individual
I came here today not expecting to speak in front of you all, but I'm glad that I am.
I want to say in response to the speaker previously, yes, I agree that there are winners and losers, but that is meant to be kept to sports where the results are meant to change from event to event, and not our political system where an entire country must be represented, and this means for a much longer period of time.
I seldom get involved in political movements, but the issue of electoral reform is important to me. I have lived in many areas over the last 12 years and have watched partisanship come to the forefront of our political system. Unfortunately, in the last election, I had to get involved because I couldn't stand to see where one party could win complete control, but guess what? Again, one party won complete control.
As our world and country have become even more connected thanks to modern methods of telecommunication, citizens should no longer be required to elect one person through an antiquated system that only supports the majority rule.
I believe that elections are better able to represent the people, all the people, and that should be the direction of my Canada of the future.
I want to bring up to you a few of the reasons that I believe electoral reform is important in this day and age.
The first is that everyone talks about the apathy of young people. This is where some sort of change to the system would be most useful. It would get people to care about the political system and in a much greater number.
The second reason that changing our first-past-the-post system would be beneficial is that it would favour the formation of minority governments. While this would be more difficult for a single party to pass their motions in the House, parties would have to work together, and I stress together, and compromise to generate motions that would be able to reflect the beliefs of more Canadians as a whole.
Thank you.
9:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
We've heard from about 80 people tonight, and we're up against our time limit, but if the audience here is in agreement, then I would give Mr. Plumpton a couple of minutes. Would you be in agreement?
[Applause]
Okay, I'll tell you what. My offer is that we'll take three more people and then we'll cut it off. I'm sorry, but at some point we have to cut it off. There are other ways to participate. You can send a written submission no longer than 3,000 words to the committee. There's an electronic questionnaire online, so there are all kinds of avenues open. There are many ways.
We'll take three people. Thank you.
Go ahead, Mr. Plumpton.
9:35 p.m.
Cliff Plumpton As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to speak.
I'm going to tell everybody why I have this jacket on, after I quickly dispose of three things: Proportional representation, yes. I'm excited to be a Canadian right now, knowing that this will happen. It has to happen. I say no to a referendum for all the reasons that have been given here tonight. I say no to Internet voting. Ask yourself how we would do a judicial recount: with paper that counts. Also, we know all about secrecy, or lack of it.
I have this jacket on because it is the jacket of my grandchildren's soccer club in Australia. It's West Pennant Hills Cherrybrook. It's a big chunk of northwest Sydney.
I have a grandson who will be 12 on December 1. He has attended at least six elections because they're held on a Saturday. I repeat: They're held on a Saturday. Those of you who will say, “I get time off work, and it's my right”, sure. If you're working on Saturday, that makes it a community event. When most of the elections are in schools, you line up to vote, and when you come out from the vote, the associations of parents are flipping hamburgers. They're selling things. It becomes a community event.
My grandson has been selling those hamburgers since he was six, and he sells up: “Would you like a ginger ale, or would you like this...?”
What I am really saying is that this is a form of education. Through osmosis, through example, he has seen people vote.
So on a Saturday, it's municipal elections, state elections, and federal elections.
I'm also 100% for compulsory voting. It is as simple as that.
I'd like to say to you, again, that I'm happy to be a Canadian tonight.
Thank you.
9:40 p.m.
Liberal
9:40 p.m.
Mel McLachlan As an Individual
I came from Comox tonight to have a say. The drive is about three hours and a bit more, depending on the other idiots on the road.
We pride ourselves on being an accommodating and co-operative people. We are now taking the mature step of re-examining and attempting to redress the wrongs and injustices in our history.
Decisions made which allowed these errors may have been different if dissenting voices had been heard. The embarrassment of the last decade stands out as an example of how not allowing consensus and vilifying dissent divides our country. Proportional representation could give us government requiring a large degree of consensus. The naysayers and obstructionists in this evolution of our democracy, I would suggest, have a personal and somewhat selfish agenda to hold on to the power that our outdated system gives them.
However, in the spirit of co-operation, to appease the naysayers, perhaps a review after a few elections might be considered, as we heard tonight. I think three is better than two to give it a real chance.
Constituency does not need to be opened, and the alternative vote is not PR.
I campaigned in the last election, and I'm happy to say that most people have a degree of knowledge of PR and think the system needs repair, especially since it was an issue in the campaign.
Thank you very much.
9:40 p.m.
Zoe Green As an Individual
Sorry, I'm quite nervous. I wasn't expecting to speak.
I've lived in Israel for the last two years, and I want to talk about my experience living under a proportional representation system. I am in favour of a proportional representation system, but I have seen some of the hardships that come along with it. I want people to know that it doesn't mean the people you don't like don't come to power, unfortunately. In fact, in this last election, that was very much the case. The substantial difference you see is that when the people you don't want come to power, you aren't disappointed in the system. You look around and think that your society isn't getting educated or understanding the perspectives that you understand. The society is speaking out and you disagree with your society. So what does that mean?
Instead of being mad at the system, you want to look at your fellow citizens and ask what is going on and what are other people not understanding. I think that's very important. Part of a democratic society is that it's about more than a vote. It's about a democratic lifestyle, one where you, in your daily interactions, believe in democracy. When you believe that your system represents the ability for all people's voices to matter, then you want to listen to other people instead of just trying to polarize a conversation.
If you're considering different systems, if you have something like a coalition as your end point, know that this can result in a smaller party's ending up with disproportionate power. I probably don't need to explain that to you, but I very much find it to be the case. That actually loses a piece of the democratic power that the proportional representation system has.
That's all I have to say.
Thank you so much.
9:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
It's been a wonderful experience to share this day and this evening with you. It's a beautiful place, Vancouver Island, populated by lovely people who know how to keep time. Thank you for your co-operation; it's greatly appreciated. Have a safe drive home.
You can go to our website. There are all kinds of alternatives for making your views known. We hope that you'll read the report when it comes out.
Thank you.