Evidence of meeting #32 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was votes.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Moscrop  Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Nick Loenen  As an Individual
Megan Dias  Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Christopher Kam  Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Mario Canseco  Vice President, Public Affairs, Insights West, As an Individual
P. Jeffery Jewell  As an Individual
Timothy Jones  As an Individual
Maxwell Anderson  As an Individual
David A. Hutcheon  As an Individual
Krista Munro  As an Individual
Lesley Bernbaum  As an Individual
Maurice Mills  As an Individual
Ian Forster  As an Individual
Myer Grinshpan  As an Individual
David Huntley  As an Individual
Gail Milner  As an Individual
Alex Tunner  As an Individual
Jason McLaren  As an Individual
Gavin McGarrigle  As an Individual
Richard Prest  As an Individual
Valerie Brown  As an Individual
Keith Poore  As an Individual
Bijan Sepehri  As an Individual
Alison Watt  As an Individual
Grant Fraser  As an Individual
Benjamin Harris  As an Individual
Colin Soskolne  As an Individual
Eline de Rooij  As an Individual
Barbara Simons  As an Individual
Harley Lang  As an Individual
Ariane Eckardt  As an Individual
Siegfried Eckardt  As an Individual
Angela Smailes  As an Individual
Derek Smith  As an Individual
Kelly Reid  As an Individual
Ian Macanulty  As an Individual
Elaine Allan  As an Individual
Jane Spitz  As an Individual
Colleen Hardwick  As an Individual
WIlliam Dunkley  As an Individual
Zak Mndebele  As an Individual
Rachel Tetrault  As an Individual
Valerie Turner  As an Individual
Roy Grinshpan  As an Individual
Jackie Deroo  As an Individual
Derek Brackley  As an Individual
Jon Lumer  As an Individual
Andreas Schulz  As an Individual
Ellen Woodsworth  As an Individual
Greg DePaco  As an Individual
Lynne Quarmby  As an Individual
Brian Couche  As an Individual
David Matthews  As an Individual
Jana MacDonald  As an Individual
Dana Dolezsar  As an Individual
Dave Carter  As an Individual
Gordon Shank  As an Individual
Rod Zahavi  As an Individual
Norman Franks  As an Individual
Erik Paulsson  As an Individual
Jerry Chen  As an Individual
Brian Whiteford  As an Individual
Duncan Graham  As an Individual
Ellena Lawrence  As an Individual
Stephen Bohus  As an Individual
Paul Keenleyside  As an Individual
Dave Hayer  As an Individual
Elizabeth Lockhart  As an Individual
Andrew Saxton  As an Individual
Tamara Jansen  As an Individual
Les Pickard  As an Individual
Marc Schenker  As an Individual
Ben Cornwell-Mott  As an Individual
Jacquelyn Miller  As an Individual
Hans Sloman  As an Individual
Derek Collins  As an Individual
Ivan Filippov  As an Individual
Sheldon Starrett  As an Individual
Meara Brown  As an Individual

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Good afternoon. We're opening our first panel here in Vancouver for meeting number 32 of the Special Committee on Electoral Reform, which is on the eighth day of its cross-country tour to gather feedback from stakeholders and Canadians on how we can improve our current first-past-the-post electoral system.

We have with us this afternoon David Moscrop, Ph.D. candidate, department of political science, University of British Columbia; Mr. Nick Loenen; and Megan Dias, graduate student, department of political science, University of British Columbia.

My understanding is that each witness will have five minutes to present. This will be followed by a round of questions from the members of the committee. Each member will have the opportunity to engage the witnesses for five minutes. That includes the questions and answers.

If for some reason you can't respond because time has run out, the next time you have the mike you can respond to a question that was previously asked.

Without further ado, we'll ask Mr. David Moscrop to take the floor, please.

September 28th, 2016 / 1:40 p.m.

David Moscrop Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Good afternoon and thank you for the invitation. I look forward to having a chance to speak with you.

Electoral systems do not change often or easily, nor should they. The electoral system is a part of the fundamental rules of the game in a democracy. These rules are institutions that enable citizens to understand and predict how their democracy will function. In essence, they help make democracy user-friendly.

However, some institutions can and should change over time. They should adapt to evolving norms and expectations, to shifting demographics, and to new priorities, technologies, practices, and approaches to democratic governance. While Canada's first-past-the-post system has served the country well since Confederation, I believe that a change to a proportional system would better serve us in the 21st century and beyond. However, whichever system we choose, the way we choose it also very important.

In the next few minutes I'm going to discuss two things: which system we should adopt and how we should adopt it. I study democratic deliberation and the psychology of political decision-making, so I'm approaching my remarks as a democratic theorist and as a student of Canadian politics. However, I'm also a citizen who believes that while we've done quite well as a country, we can do better.

Let me start with how we should adopt a new system. Electoral reform is not merely a technical exercise, it's a political exercise and a normative exercise. Choosing a system is about power, inclusion, and how we want to live together.

Because no electoral system is neutral, because political parties are affected by it, and because we disagree about which is the best one for us, only a thorough, open, and sustained democratic process will provide the necessary legitimacy for whichever system is chosen. Accordingly, the process of choosing a system must be separated from the process of ratifying that choice. More specifically, politicians who will be directly affected by the system should not be in charge of choosing it since they face a direct conflict of interest. The electoral system belongs to the people to whom the polity belongs, that is, all of us.

I strongly recommend that we initiate a national citizens' assembly on electoral reform, similar to that which was held in British Columbia in 2004 and in Ontario in 2006. The assembly should be tasked with learning about electoral systems, deliberating over which is best for Canada, and then making a specific recommendation.

Now, for ratifying the proposal, the controversial bit, either a free vote in Parliament or a referendum is necessary. I prefer a citizens' assembly followed by a vote in Parliament. A parliamentary vote would be quicker and less costly than a referendum. More importantly, provided Parliament merely ratifies the recommended system without amendment, I believe this would meet the threshold of democratic legitimacy that requires that the system chosen is a product of disinterested individuals acting in the public good and not of partisan political bias or engineering.

That said, a referendum, provided it follows a citizens' assembly, that is extremely well resourced and includes a robust and sustained public education campaign might also meet the threshold. However, when run poorly, and referendums often are, referendums risk undermining their democratic intent through low and unrepresentative turnout, public misinformation campaigns by partisan interests, and structural biases that creep into decision-making.

To summarize, a citizens' assembly, if properly resourced and run and followed by a free vote in Parliament, would be a wise and democratically legitimate approach to choosing an electoral system. It would help us pick an appropriate system for Canada and would take the choice out of the hands of politicians who might benefit from that choice, perhaps at the expense of their opponents. Not only would this approach be democratically legitimate and effective, it would be politically expedient for a government or for a committee that finds itself in a tricky position.

Now, which system do I think we should choose? I believe a mixed member proportional system is best for Canada. MMP allows for direct local representation and lives up to the commitment many Canadians have to fairness understood as a proportional translation of votes into seats. Now, this is a value choice. It rests on a conception of fairness related to the idea that each vote should have a high likelihood of contributing to electing a member of Parliament while also allowing smaller parties to win seats in the House of Commons.

MMP would address what many see as a serious problem. Under first past the post, governments win majorities with around 40% of the vote and often with the support of a mere 25% to 27% of the eligible voters. Such outcomes offer weak electoral mandates that raise questions in the long run about democratic legitimacy.

Properly designed, MMP would allow Canada to have the best of two worlds, the local representation and an effective House of Commons that we have in our first past the post and fairer electoral outcomes and representation offered by proportional systems.

In conclusion, we have a once in a generation opportunity to choose an electoral system that represents the values that many Canadians cherish. I believe that choice ought to be MMP. However, the way we choose a system is at least as important, indeed, perhaps more important. A citizens' assembly is necessary for this choice, followed either by a free parliamentary vote or an extremely well-run referendum.

Thank you.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Mr. Moscrop.

Mr. Loenen, for five minutes.

1:45 p.m.

Nick Loenen As an Individual

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, we all know Sir Sandford Fleming for giving us the 24-hour clock, but he was also a student of Parliament. He gave an address 125 years ago in Ottawa on the rectification of Parliament.

Fleming saw two problems: one, the makeup of the House was not representative at all of how Canadians vote; and two, excessive party discipline allowed the executive to control the legislative. He thought that was wrong. He had a remedy for both of these ills. The remedy he took from John Stuart Mill was multi-seat districts and a ranked ballot.

Those two problems that Fleming saw are still with us today. The remedy he proposed is as relevant as it was in his day. Would we be able to turn all of the 338 ridings into a multi-seat district? I don't think so. I don't think it's possible because it would mean chronic coalition government, and Canadians are uncomfortable with that. In addition, it would mean that in rural Canada, the ridings would be so large as to be deemed unmanageable.

For those two reasons, we can't go that way, but we can go a long ways that way. In other words, we need a compromise.

Hence, my suggestion to you would be that we have a single seat preferential ballot for rural Canada and multi-seat in the urban centres. That is a perfect fit. It's a perfect fit for our geography. It's a perfect fit because of the uneven distribution of population, and it fits the need of the hour.

At this point in our history, I do not believe Canadians want full proportional representation, but they certainly want to go more proportional than what we have. I believe that this is exactly what we need at this moment, and what is perhaps the only alternative that is possible politically, which is another very important consideration: What is possible?

I do think that this kind of hybrid common-sense adaptation of all of our Canadian needs makes a whole lot of sense, and we had it in history. Both the provinces of Alberta and Manitoba for 30 years had exactly that kind of hybrid system between rural and urban ridings. It was discontinued in the 1950s by the politicians. The people had no voice in it.

I looked at your guiding principle, and it's a wonderful statement. It's a beautiful statement. It's inspirational. It yearns for greater democracy, and particularly more effective local representation, for inclusion, for MPs who will speak for their constituents. It talks about civic engagement, and for the voters to be empowered, not necessarily the parties, and in particular for MPs to have some more clout. Those two, electoral reform and parliamentary reform, are both needed, and are tied very closely together.

If I look at the guiding principles, it narrows the field considerably because it rules out the entire family of proportional representation systems. Why? Because those are party-based systems. They empower parties. You'll end up with more party discipline than you have today. Those systems are appropriate for countries where you have a separation between the executive and the legislative. We don't have that. That's not Canada.

In our system, for it to survive, for it to be truly accountable, to be a check on the powers of government, you need independence, a measure of independence for the MPs; otherwise the House becomes merely a rubberstamp, so I do not see how the guiding principles would allow you to buy into any form of proportional representation.

I believe that proportional representation systems, all of them, are party-based systems. They fit the European mindset, which sees politics as a clash of ideas that are embodied by the parties.

We look at politics more as offering people good government. It is more practical. It is more geared to personalities than to parties and platforms. Therefore, I do not think you will be able to get buy-in from the Canadian public for any system, including the mixed member proportional system, that has an element of party-based voting. It simply is not on—

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mr. Loenen, are you able to wrap up?

There will be time in the Q and A.

1:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Nick Loenen

I'll leave it at that.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. Dias.

1:50 p.m.

Megan Dias Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Thank you to the chair and the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak here.

I'm going to spend my time in front of the committee arguing that the process of how we adopt a new electoral system is critically important, and that, as it stands, the process needs to be made more inclusive and representative.

I believe that the best way for electoral reform to be decided in Canada is through a diverse and inclusive citizens' assembly that is representative of Canadians at large. I've come to this conclusion both as someone who spends a lot of time thinking about and studying politics, and also as someone who has attended and spoken at several town halls now and has seen their limitations in representation and decision-making.

With electoral reform, we get to make a decision about what type of politics and government we want. We get to make a decision that has the potential to make our politics more effective, engaging, and inclusive. We should also ensure that the process of reform reflects these principles and reflects the type of politics and society we want.

To me, this means using a process that is inclusive of a wide variety of Canadian voices and perspectives and empowers diverse individuals to have a meaningful say in choosing their electoral system, a system that will impact their lives as citizens. The current method of public engagement is simply not doing this.

As Darrell Bricker's poll illuminated a few weeks ago, only 19% of Canadians are even aware that this is happening, and only 3% are paying close attention, and this 3% tends to be older, affluent white males.

Town halls simply haven't reached a diverse or representative group of Canadians. I've attended and spoken at several town halls now, run by MPs as well as local organizations and citizens, and I am usually the youngest person in attendance by far.

Everyone at town halls seems to be well educated, well connected to politics, and knowledgeable about the issue. The inability to attract younger and less-informed individuals, as well as a whole host of minority groups to these town halls is not the fault of the organizers. It is the nature of town halls themselves. Someone who attends a town hall is likely already interested in the subject, has an opinion she wants to register, and has the time and means to do this. All of this favours limited groups of people and excludes others.

Town halls simply are not a good way of educating people on this topic either. Electoral reform is not as intuitive as other political topics. Academics spend years studying it, and the committee has spent months getting a crash course on it. It's unfair to expect that in a two-hour town hall, Canadians can learn about the different systems, think about how the different ones will impact their lives differently, come to an opinion about which one they prefer, and then discuss and register their opinions with their local MP and fellow constituents.

I worry that an online consultation will be inadequate as well for similar reasons. Online consultation will, again, favour individuals who already have an interest in the topic. It will also require citizens to have the time and interest to essentially teach themselves the subject. Those who don't have the time, or frankly, haven't been given the incentives to know why they should care, won't be motivated to engage.

I submit to the committee that the best way to engage Canadians on this issue, especially Canadians who have been historically marginalized and disconnected from our political system, is a citizens' assembly, like the ones held by B.C. or Ontario. Citizens' assemblies can be designed to include individuals who aren't usually included in this discussion.

The B.C. Citizens' Assembly ensured gender parity and representation from all ridings in B.C. It also ensured that there was representation from aboriginal groups. Participants were offered a stipend for their time in the assembly, which means that those from less affluent backgrounds weren't precluded from attending. Finally, the assembly devoted the time and resources necessary to educate each member on the issue, so that it's not just the already educated and informed dominating the debate, and everyone could bring their perspectives to bear on it.

In order to hold a a citizens' assembly, it might be necessary for this process to be slowed down and the timeline on reform to be extended. I don't see this as an issue. Reforming our electoral system will have major implications for our politics, and will therefore affect the lives of citizens at large. I would rather have an electoral system that is decided on by a group that is representative of Canadians at large, even if this means delaying the final decision a little bit.

Electoral reform is a major opportunity for us as it allows us to make a decision about what type of politics we want. The process of reform should also reflect what type of politics we want: engaging, diverse, inclusive, and representative. A citizens' assembly would fit these criteria, and it would inform and empower individuals who are not currently part of the discussion and allow them to bring their perspectives to bear on the issues.

For these reasons, I urge the committee to include a proposal for a citizens' assembly in their final report to Parliament.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much.

We've heard a lot about citizens' assemblies on this panel, but this is a bit of a new emphasis, so it should be very interesting.

We'll start with Ms. Sahota, for five minutes, please.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Mr. Chair, I'd like to first recognize that we are on the traditional territory of the Coast Salish, including the Musqueam, the Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh first nations.

I'd like to thank all our witnesses here today. Those were excellent and very different presentations. We really appreciate having different perspectives on our panel.

I'd like to start with a question for Ms. Dias. What graduate studies program are you currently in?

1:55 p.m.

Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Megan Dias

I'm in political science. I'm an M.A. candidate at UBC.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

What is your work geared towards? Is it in electoral reform or—

1:55 p.m.

Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Megan Dias

It's on political behaviour, and that does interact with electoral systems, party systems, that kind of thing.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

You said that you're finding that people at the town hall meetings you've been attending are already very aware of the issue and that it's a certain type of demographic that's coming out to these meetings.

Other than a citizens' assembly—and a citizens' assembly is a great suggestion—what else do you think we can do to have better outreach and to get to those people who aren't well informed? We heard from some of the witnesses in Victoria yesterday that there was already a citizens' assembly here in B.C., so the decision has been made and we don't need to ask B.C. again because they know what they want, that type of an attitude. What would you say about that?

2 p.m.

Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Megan Dias

I think the citizens' assembly process in B.C. was very successful. The people who participated in it seemed to really have an understanding of the issue, and there was a part of the citizens' assembly that required them to go back and interact with other citizens.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

What was the demographic of the citizens' assembly?

2 p.m.

Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Megan Dias

A citizens' assembly allows you to choose members in a way that ensures that the demographic is representative. The demographic was equal parts men and women. They included representatives from all ridings in B.C., and they also included aboriginal representation. There was a much more diverse representation than there is at town hall meetings or things like that.

For a citizens' assembly held on a national level, you could decide what kind of demographic representation you want. There's no one set way to do that.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

What is your position on what type of system this committee should propose?

2 p.m.

Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Megan Dias

I think, on balance, MMP is the best system. It gives the local representation that is important for a country like Canada and important to Canadians. This is balanced with a better sense of fairness and proportionality. MMP allows for things like lists that would allow for greater gender representation in Parliament, which I think is really important.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Do you believe that increase in gender equality and perhaps minorities in Parliament would be a direct result of MMP? Do you think that would have a big impact?

2 p.m.

Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Megan Dias

It would not be a direct result of MMP itself. It would be the details that we put into MMP. MMP allows for party lists, and party lists have been used in other countries to increase gender representation and to increase representation of other groups. That's not inherent in MMP, but it's definitely a possibility and something that I think would be beneficial with MMP.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

What would you imagine the process would be to get onto one of these party lists? How easy would it be? Sometimes it's made to seem that it would be very simple. Of course, at the end of the day, it would be party will as to who goes on these lists. However, sometimes my fear is that there still may be the front-runners or that typical candidate, perhaps the highest fundraiser, and those types of situations. How do we avoid the elite of the elite, the cream of the crop, or whatever, getting onto those lists rather than a cross-section of our society?

2 p.m.

Graduate student, Department of Political Science, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Megan Dias

Yes, I think that is a concern. I know it's a concern for a lot of people about things like lists. I think it would come down to the details. This is a system that we're creating. We can set this up in a way that might mandate that you're not allowed to do this, or that on the list you have to include an equal number of men and women, alternating. Things like that could be set up.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Deltell now.

2 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this parliamentary committee meeting.

I will continue in English as best I can.

Mr. Moscrop, thank you so much for your comments. You made some very interesting points. As you know, we in the Conservative Party are open to discussion on this issue. We all recognize that our present system is not absolutely perfect. There are some things that we are very concerned about with respect to our actual system, but we also recognize that there is no perfect system.

You've talked a lot about how to reach a new way, how to have a new electoral system. You've said that as politicians—and I strongly agree with what you're saying—we are in a conflict of interest. For sure, we are the ones who could decide how to get elected. This is quite difficult for us.

You also talked a lot about how, if we move on and have a new electoral system, we should have a huge amount of public information. People should be very well informed about what is going on.

There are some questions in my mind. First of all, do you think we have enough time in front of us before the next election to have a new system and to get the public well informed if the government decides to go with a new electoral system?