Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 28th, 2016

[Roy Grinshpan, As an Individual]

As it happens, I think the right balance is not touching our existing seats, but giving each voter two ballots and having the second ballot used to proportionately choose just another 25 seats. With 4% of the minimum threshold, people can feel that we're making a cautious incremental approach to change. As our third expert witness strongly cautioned that we do, we can take it slowly. Rome wasn't built in a day. Let's not rush things, although it doesn't matter what I think or what anyone else in this room thinks unless the limited consultation we have here is legitimized by a national referendum on any and all changes.

Having personally attended all the meetings of the B.C. Citizens' Assembly, we in B.C. know what a legitimate process actually is. Citizens like me who lived through that expect the federal government to actually practise the fundamentals of federalism, learn from the world-acknowledged best practices of our province, which included a process that was not politicized by its actors, a process that was careful to take its time to thoroughly educate the participants. It did not ram through a sham process as is happening here with three hours of open mike for a metro region of three million people, to speak nothing of Alberta that has one pit stop, in one city for the entire province. Also, we require a citizens' assembly process that is legitimized by a referendum. We absolutely need that.

To the honourable member from the Bloc Québécois, my other point is a very cautionary tale for everybody here about Quebec. God forbid you actually decide to proceed without a referendum and hide for cover under the Liberal platform that promised non-specific electoral reform amongst a host of other promises that have been broken without any thought. The next time a Parti Québécois government gets elected because the population happens to be tired of the current governing party, you are handing the separatists carte blanche to declare a unilateral declaration of independence under the same cover as this process. Everyone knows the separatists' platform has separation in it and it is implied that a referendum is not necessary because the federal government didn't need one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay, time is getting—

[Roy Grinshpan]

That may be what my friend from the Bloc Québécois would like to see happen, but as federalists, we should not support that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Michael Redman, please come to the other mike.

Ms. Deroo, you have two minutes.

[Jackie Deroo, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I am a retired senior citizen and mother of three children. I worked all my life in business, paid my taxes and always voted. I thought I lived in a modern democracy; however, four years ago, my husband and I faced a family crisis when I found my adult son in tears one day. When I asked what was wrong, he confessed he was deeply afraid of climate change and afraid of the future. He doubted he even had a future. He didn't think he would ever have children. He wanted to know why politicians weren't doing anything. We discovered that our two adult daughters felt the same way. We were upset to hear this. When they asked if we could do something, we said yes. We wanted to be positive and diligent, so I am now a full-time volunteer inspired by an organization called Leadnow. We are working for a vision of the future that I want for my children, an open democracy, a fair economy, and a safe climate.

In my work over the last two years, I have spoken to hundreds and hundreds of Canadians face to face. I have concluded that there are two overarching problems with our present electoral system: It is not fair to citizens and it is not right for the future of our democracy.

I would like each of you to ask this question when you evaluate the elements of our next system: Is it fair, but more than this, is it as fair as it can be? Furthermore, our new system must be right for the future. I agree with the Prime Minister that diversity is the real strength of our country. It will be even more diverse in the future. This is the story of Canada. We need the trust and engagement of as many citizens as possible to give ourselves the best chance to address the big problems our children will be facing in the future.

Declining trust in government eventually can only lead to civil unrest, as we are seeing in the U.S. I ask each of you to have the courage to support a proportional voting system that would give us a fair, inclusive, and more collaborative democracy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Is Mr. Redmond here? No.

Mr. Derek Brackley, go ahead.

[Derek Brackley, As an Individual]

Good evening. It's my pleasure to be here and to address members of the committee.

My father immigrated to Canada. He came from a place where there were no elections. He came here because he loved democracy.

I learned a lot about that when I was growing up. I have voted in every election. My kids are in Labrador and Ontario, and they vote. I'm a Canadian citizen first, and a member of any particular part of the country second.

In our first-past-the-post system, about nine million votes in the last election didn't count. Our Prime Minister has said it's broken and promised to change the system. Who wouldn't be in favour of a better system that, for instance, provided effective government, accountable government, provided an effective opposition, valued votes where every vote counts, gave regional balance, and engaged in inclusive decision-making? These are values that formed the basis of the Law Commission report in 2004.

There has been a lot of time since 2004, and maybe we could debate what has been learned since then, but I think many of the comments I've heard today suggest that the population needs to be educated, and there needs to be a common base of knowledge as we engage in this discussion.

Some form of proportional representation is in use in 85% of OECD countries. It has been proven to work. It identifies, and you can read this in the Law Commission report, that participation of voters has increased. The responsiveness of politicians to the citizenry has increased. These are values that I think are really important for Canada.

Many young people don't vote. My kids vote, but they tell me about their friends who don't vote because, “Why would I vote? It doesn't matter”. I have voted in many elections and most of the time I think, “Okay, this is my first choice, but wait a second, I'd better vote some other way because I'm more concerned about who the two leading candidates are, and I need to vote in such a way that the worst outcome doesn't happen.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You're referring to strategic voting, of course, but we're way over time. I have to go to the next speaker.

[Derek Brackley]

I would ask the committee to recommend some form of proportional representation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead, Mr. Lumer.

[Jon Lumer, As an Individual]

Thank you for your time.

My name is Jon Lumer. I came this evening also to speak in favour of proportional representation, and against a referendum. I spent the last writ period in several different ridings on both sides of the country. I worked first with a candidate in Laurier—Sainte-Marie in Quebec. There were nine candidates in the riding. Three candidates received more than 10,000 votes each. The NDP kept that riding. Hélène Laverdière is the MP, with less than 40% of the vote. However, 61.7% of the votes were not translated into representation in the House.

I spent the last half of the campaign in the north Okanagan. Most people I spoke with in downtown Vernon were trying to decide how to vote strategically. The consensus was that the NDP had the best hope of beating the Conservatives. This ended up being false. The Liberals beat the NDP by four points, but in any case, the Conservatives maintained their seat with less than 40% of the vote; 60.7% of the votes were not translated into representation in the House.

My family's home is in the Laurentian Mountains of Quebec, and in that riding of Laurentides—Labelle the vote was split fairly evenly among four parties. The Bloc took the riding with less than 30% of the vote; 70.3% of the votes were not translated into representation in the House.

I arrived in Vancouver on November 1 with my wife. Our MP is the Honourable Hedy Fry. Dr. Fry was elected with 56.1% of the votes, which is to say that 32,554 ballots were cast for Dr. Fry, but she only needed 11,619 votes to secure her seat; so, in fact, even in a safe riding where most people had the pleasure of actually voting for the person who speaks for them in Parliament, 80% of the votes were not translated into representation in the House.

Under our system, the more familiar you are with the workings of democracy, the more difficult it becomes to convince yourself that your vote matters. The less motivated you are to participate, no matter where you are in the country, no matter who you would like to vote for, that is a very sad state of affairs, but it can be easily corrected. Please do what you can to ensure we obtain some form of proportional representation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Schulz, go ahead.

[Andreas Schulz, As an Individual]

Hi.

There were suggestions made here that proportional systems might lead to extremism. I would like to point out that the current first-past-the-post system in Canada gave us the Japanese internment, and it's given us the ongoing systemic discrimination against our first nations. We don't need proportional representation to give us extreme views.

One of the most important aspects of a voting system is not only that it's fair, but also that it's perceived to be fair by the voters. I think we've heard enough tonight to know that many voters don't feel that the system is fair to them. A perception of fairness may outweigh some of the disadvantages of the systems that have been explained to us.

I'm very much in favour of a proportional system. I was very encouraged by the work of the Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform that was undertaken in British Columbia. These are normal citizens from all over the province who got together and made excellent recommendations. I think the only downfall was that it wasn't enforced. In other words, the recommendations of the committee should have been accepted.

I don't think a referendum is helpful. Very rarely have I seen the effects of referendums coming out the way they were intended to come out. We only have to look at the recent Brexit referendum in Great Britain to understand that it can create huge problems. My understanding is that out of 600-some MPs in Great Britain, only 132 were in favour of leaving the common market.

I encourage you all to pick the best possible proportional system so that we can all be well represented.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Woodsworth.

[Ellen Woodsworth, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

My name is Ellen Woodsworth. I'm a former Vancouver city councillor and chair of Women Transforming Cities, an international society. I'm also a cousin of Grace MacInnis, who for a number of years was the only woman MP in the House of Commons.

I chained myself in the House of Commons, with other women from the abortion cavalcade, to ensure that the House of Commons listened to the voices of women calling for a woman's right to choose on abortion. Women did not have free access to either abortion or birth control in the 1970s, and were not being heard by the government because women were not in the government.

Today there are issues that have not been heard by a government that does not equitably represent them. The voices of murdered and missing first nations women are only now being heard. There is a creeping disillusionment in this country since the last federal election that people will not be heard on a number of commitments.

I'm pleased today that the government representing all parties is listening to citizens about the current undemocratic electoral system. I'm very concerned that there are so few voices of women being heard at these hearings. I'm concerned that aboriginal, lesbian, trans, immigrant, refugee, young and older women, from all cultures and races, are not being encouraged to attend these or special hearings. They are the ones bearing the brunt of the economic and housing crisis and climate change. Their vote needs to be reflected.

Of the 62 witnesses who appeared before the special committee this summer, just 13 were women. In almost half of all meetings, fully 100% of the witnesses were men. At one point, the committee convened seven meetings in a row without hearing from a single female witness. This committee is meeting during the day and has no child care available. I understand that in Ottawa there was a special meeting convened for women. Only 25% of this committee is made up of women.

Nancy Peckford of Equal Voice stated:

Recognizing Canada’s first-past-the-post system has been woefully imperfect in terms of the electoral outcomes it has shaped for women who remain chronically and severely under-represented, the committee must be much more thoughtful about who precisely they hear from.

Women currently comprise 26% of federal members of Parliament. Only three of Canada's 13 premiers are women. Canada ranks 64th internationally for women's representation in national parliaments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We're really quite over the time limit now.

[Ellen Woodsworth]

I support proportional representation. I support the three points of Equal Voice, and I think we need not have a referendum, which often is just unfair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. DePaco.

[Greg DePaco, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good evening, panellists.

I'm grateful to Dr. Simons for making many of the points I was never going to be able to say in just two minutes.

I concur with Dr. Simon's conclusion that online voting shouldn't be embraced before it can be made secure, but I go still further and suggest that even if online voting could one day be made 100% secure, it could never be visibly and demonstrably secure in the way a properly scrutineered paper ballot can. Without a visibly secure process, rumours of secret fixes will abound, rumours that would surely increase cynicism about the electoral process and quite possibly cause a decrease in voter turnout.

Not every citizen can be a computer expert. The idea that everyone marks a paper and puts it in a box, and in front of representatives of each candidate the ballots are dumped out and counted is on a human scale. Any move to online or electronic voting is another level of “trust the experts”. This yields conspiracy speculation. Would such speculation be baseless? Perhaps. However, a conspiracy theory need not be well grounded to deter voter participation.

Gathering at a voting place to cast the ballot makes voting visible to the community. Voters are urged to bring their children with them to impress on them the importance of voting. Voting by mobile phone, by contrast, would to an onlooker be indistinguishable from ordering a pizza. As former B.C. Liberal leader Gordon Wilson said, there's simply no substitute for showing up at a physical polling station and having one's identity verified before being allowed to vote.

The push for online voting is essentially based on the supposition that it will increase voter turnout, but this notion assumes that a significant number of non-voters would vote if it were more convenient. The evidence, however, shows that non-voters are not deterred by the inconvenience of voting, but rather feel disengaged from the democratic process. Canada has changed from a largely rural to a largely urban nation over the past century, making voting much more convenient, but turnout has dropped in tandem.

Two British members of Parliament recently toured England speaking to voters and non-voters and reported that those who don't vote are as uninterested in politics as it is possible to be. We have work to do in re-engaging such citizens, but online voting is not the solution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Do you have many more points to make, Mr. DePaco?

[Greg DePaco]

Very quickly, finishing up, the paper ballot is the key physical proof of our power as citizens. No citizen should ever have to wonder whether his or her vote was counted, let alone be called upon to trust that it was.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Quarmby.

[Lynne Quarmby, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I'm Lynne Quarmby. I'm a professor at Simon Fraser University. I am a scientist. I direct a research lab studying the molecular biology of cells.

I have voted in every election I have been eligible to vote in. I have never voted with much enthusiasm. I've never had an option to vote for someone I believed could be elected, who would go to Ottawa and represent my values.

Last year I ran as a candidate in Burnaby North—Seymour. I learned many things. One thing I learned, because I heard it thousands of times on doorsteps, at rallies, by email, and on social media, was that people liked me. They thought, “Here's somebody who can represent my values and someone who will be a strong voice for me in Ottawa; however, I'm not going to vote for her.” Strategic voting....

Of all the systems you consider, please bring us a system where strategic voting in Canada means voting for the person you believe will best represent you. That's the strategy I want to see.

Very quickly, as a scientist, I can't resist hypothesizing that there's a strong correlation between those calling loudly for a referendum and a partisan allegiance that would benefit from the status quo, because a referendum will give us the status quo.

Thank you.

[Applause]

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You're free to clap and cheer, but I find it takes something away from the meeting. However, as I say, it's a free country.

Mr. Couche, please.

[Brian Couche, As an Individual]

Good evening.

I was here earlier this afternoon and I picked up one of your cards, #ERRE. You'll have to excuse my accent. I'm from Ontario, but from where I come that says “eerie”, not as in Lake Erie, but as in eerie or scary. The path we decide to take with this committee is going to determine Canada's role in democracy, how we're going to shape our society and everything else.

Mr. Trudeau did get a mandate for electoral reform, but he also got a mandate to legalize marijuana, and look at the fine mess he's making with that committee.

When I was walking around this afternoon thinking of what I was going to say, I came across a mural on a wall that said “Voodoo Veritas”. So I brushed up on my Latin and I went to Simon Fraser University, and the dictionary said that Veritas was the Roman goddess of truth.

Ronald Reagan said it best when he said “trust but verify”. We need a citizens' committee so we can verify that what you're putting forward as recommendations is going to be the best for our democracy.

All I can say is that any proposal not put forward for a referendum is a slap in the face to democracy. As an active member of the Canadian Labour Congress, which represents over 3.5 million union workers, we'll make sure that we can trust and verify.

Thank you.