Evidence of meeting #33 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was first.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you, Professor Nash.
We'll start the round of questioning with Mr. Aldag, for five minutes, please.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Great. I'd like to thank both of our witnesses for joining us this evening and thank the members of the audience. I recognize some faces from earlier today and some new ones, so thank you for coming out to join this important discussion, and hopefully, you'll be able to participate in our open mike session after this panel ends.
I appreciate the comments that both of our witnesses have provided.
You've touched a bit on it, but I'd like to go into a bit more exploration of the size of the districts. The riding I represent right now in Vancouver is Lower Mainland. The boundary is 47 kilometres. I ran it last Father's Day as an event, so it's doable.
I've also had the opportunity to live for several years in the Northwest Territories right on the northern boundary of Alberta. I've driven both from Edmonton through Fort McMurray and onto the ice road through Fort Chip up to Fort Smith and got around on the highway up through Hay River. I have a real appreciation for the geographical challenges that our country faces. Both of you have talked about having to resize the zones.
Professor Nash, you mentioned that the territories would require some sort of special treatments. I'd like to hear from you on that, but I also wonder about your thoughts on the Prairies, the large northern ridings we have in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia. Northern Ontario and northern Quebec have the same issues, as does Labrador. Could you talk about your vision for how we overcome the challenges of the large geography and the small populations and how you see this playing out?
6:45 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, As an Individual
I tried to mention that in my address.
6:45 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, As an Individual
I believe we have simply to accept that there are some regions that deserve independent representation regardless of whether that means breaking some of the rules that we're trying to bring in for the vast majority of the country.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
So should that individual representation remain under the first past the post system?
6:45 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, As an Individual
With respect to the territories, if it's possible, I think they should be made into one zone in which they deal with it in some unique way but with an attempt to make proportionality there among the three territories.
With respect to the northern constituencies in provinces, I think they should be treated as perfectly good ridings that would be incorporated into proportionality zones.
6:45 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, As an Individual
My model says 10 MPs from a zone, six of them from ridings, four of them at large. I think one of six ordinary ridings would elect an MP, and because its population was small, it would have a lesser effect on the elections at large.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Okay.
Mr. Blain, what are your thoughts on these things?
6:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I think we need to respect the boundaries of our provinces and territories and I think we have to leave them as they are. I would leave the MPs as they are, unfortunate as the situation is, with one MP in each district. The question of the larger districts in provinces is a fact of life of Canada, just like it's a fact of life of Australia. We have huge areas. I agree with you: they're very big. But who are they big for? The voters still go to the same polling station. They can still email their local MP. There are all sorts of communications now that we didn't have. When I started school, I went there in a horse and buggy in rural Saskatchewan. Seeing an airplane was a novelty. Now we have vastly improved transportation and communication.
Australia seems to do just fine. Western Australia, one district, is 2.5 million square kilometres. I recognize that it's huge, but over the past four years I spent maybe six months in Australia, and I never, ever heard anybody complain about the size of the district. It's simply a non-issue.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both of our panellists, the members of the audience, and those who will speak at the open mike to follow.
I'll maybe allow Mr. Blain to continue with regard to Mr. Aldag's line of questioning. I'm quite interested in this as well.
In light of testimony we heard earlier this week when we travelled to Whitehorse...and indeed from some of the observations of our committee member Nathan Cullen, who was with us earlier in the week, who represents a large riding in British Columbia. As members of Parliament, we've had a lot of discussion from the members here. Under the current system, when the election is over we are—all of us, I hope—committed to representing all of our constituents, regardless of who they voted for. We take a lot of steps to try to do that through meeting with constituents. In a city, where you can have an office that's accessible to most people, that's one thing, but for these large ridings, a member of Parliament has to do a lot travel in between all the rest of their parliamentary duties in Ottawa.
I'm glad Mr. Nash mentioned urbanization. The process of urbanization makes ridings bigger and bigger and bigger over time, because the size of a riding doesn't typically change. When there's redistribution for population growth, it adds cities to where more people live, and thus makes the other areas larger and larger. Any type of system of proportionality I think inherently exacerbates that issue in the north.
Specifically in the Yukon, there seemed to be no interest, from any of the panellists or audience members, in lumping together territories. Even those who preferred proportional representation perhaps for the rest of Canada did not want to see it in their own area.
I'll let perhaps each of you address that.
6:50 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, As an Individual
If that's what they want, that's fine. I think this is an exceptional situation. I believe it's possible to link them together electorally, because they're not provinces, but if they don't want to be linked together and they would prefer to stay the way they are, that's fine.
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
6:50 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, As an Individual
That's fine. They have a sort of buddy thing; they're happy there.
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Go ahead, Mr. Blain, if you have anything else to add on that.
6:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I think the northern territories are very large. Nunavut is probably one of the biggest electoral districts in the world. We made them individual territories, and I think we need to respect that. I have no issue with keeping them as they are.
I recognize that in northern provinces their ridings would be very large in terms of districts for a single transferable vote. But how many times, in my life, have I gone to see my MP? Once: that was when I went to see you.
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you for doing so.
I was pleased to meet you, and I'm glad you took the opportunity.
6:50 p.m.
As an Individual
My point is, how often do voters do this when they're not aligned with their MP? It's not a big issue.
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
I would hope that wouldn't be part of their calculation. We don't ask people who they voted for. We don't even speculate. We deal with people as they come to us, because it's our duty to represent all the constituents in our riding. That's what we are elected to do.
6:50 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to the witnesses.
Thank you for being here. It is very interesting to hear you both, even though there are slight differences between the proposals you are making. Both of you are suggesting a change in voting systems in order to achieve a higher degree of proportionality to ensure that the voices of all citizens find their way to and place in our Parliament.
Professor Nash, I would like to make sure I correctly understood you. You said at the end that you were not really in favour of the idea of a referendum on a change in voting systems because the majority decision might trample minorities across the country. I am not sure I correctly understood what you meant.
6:55 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, As an Individual
It's quite simple. When you hold a referendum with an all-or-none result, that result is going to reflect the prejudices of the majority. Those who are in fairly small minorities, but not inconspicuous ones—the Green Party is one of them—are going to be screwed, essentially, by the process. They're not going to get a fair shake. I think it's a moral decision that things that involve minority rights are not subjected to any kind of referendum. However, as I said, if holding a referendum eases the way to a proportional representation system, it's obviously ridiculous to oppose it.