Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 30th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Now we will hear from Ms. May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you all for being here. I want to ask each of you a question, because I think I have a sense of where you are on this, and we do hope to work for a consensus decision ourselves inspired by consensus making here in the Northwest Territories. Say we found that we couldn't accommodate additional representation in Yukon, the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut but were able to achieve proportionality nationally, and therefore have additional MPs to ensure that 39% of the vote never again results in a majority of the seats, and doing so wouldn't affect the proportionality of representation for northerners. Would you find that to be an improvement or do you think we really must make sure everyone has a proportional and local representative as well as the one MP you each have now?

I'll start with Ms. Balakrishnan and then work to Lois and Andrew.

[Janaki Balakrishnan]

First of all, the studies done in the past have focused mainly on the southern provinces. They haven't looked deeply at the territories in terms of population distribution or geography. Therefore, national representation will be helpful only for the southern provinces. I have already read about MMP and I learned from Fair Vote Canada about different types of representation, and they're talking about topping up and then local representation, which will not work for the three territories.

Three territories have all the same rights that any of the provinces in the south have, which has never been considered. It has repeatedly been asked how three territories can become one for the purposes of regional representation. Consideration of that idea shows how little consideration has been given to the territories, and politically they are far behind right now. If you want to fill the gap, you'll have to make some dramatic changes.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Ms. Little.

[Lois Little]

I think Dennis said it quite well when he said that we're a more colonial state than the whole of Canada. If we start to get separated out and treated differently then we don't have a hope in Hades of really being part of this country. We have to be treated the same.

Thank you very much.

[Andrew Robinson]

I wish there were a way that we could vote and have our vote counted towards proportionality on a national scale. We don't need another MP in spite of colleagues' passionate arguments. We have one and that's enough, in my opinion. But if there's going to be a proportional system, we also want to participate.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

That would tend to push us towards mixed member proportional, in which you vote for your local MP and you vote for your party preference nationally.

[Andrew Robinson]

If that were possible without changing the Constitution, then yes.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I wanted to pursue something with you, Ms. Little. The Council of Canadians did great work on the robocalls issue. It hasn't come up much because it's not directly part of our mandate, although we're looking for the principles of legitimacy and we want to give Canadians confidence in our voting system. We certainly never lacked confidence in our voting system until the robocalls of 2011.

The only witness mentioned so far is the chief electoral officer of Ontario, Greg Essensa. I asked him about it. The Ontario chief electoral officer has the powers that the Council of Canadians' lawyer, Steve Shrybman, has put to the committee on the Fair Elections Act, i.e., powers of subpoena and powers of investigation.

Do you think this committee can stretch our mandate in any way to make recommendations around the legitimacy and the ability of Elections Canada officials to pursue fraud?

[Lois Little]

I think you'd have to. You can't put forth any kind of recommendations for another voting system if there isn't the legislative support for that, to ensure that the integrity of the voting system is maintained. We know that, as you mentioned, the integrity has been compromised. The courts have recognized that. We really need to make that legislative change, and I think you can make that argument.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I want to commend Andrew Robinson and Alternatives North. When I used to be at Sierra Club, I was always in awe of the scope of your work. I don't know how you're doing on cleaning up Giant Mine, but continue your perseverance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. DeCourcey, go ahead.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you to all three presenters here today.

I wanted to take the opportunity to allow for clarification of a couple of things. One was the notion, Mr. Robinson, of the territory voters voting in three different types of systems last year. They are all voting in a first-past-the-post system, but there is a difference between the voting system and the style of governance influenced by the political culture of the community in the region or the territory. Is that correct?

[Andrew Robinson]

Technically, in the City of Yellowknife system, it's the first eight past the post, plus a separate election for mayor.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Fair enough, so there is a difference there. This is part of the clarification. In the territorial election and in the federal election, voters are going to the ballot box and casting their ballot in the same way, and what is effectively different is the culture of governance on the other side.

[Andrew Robinson]

At the territorial level, there are no parties, so you don't have the confusion in voting of whether you are voting for the candidate or for the party, so that's the difference. There is no party name on the ballot at the territorial level. At the federal level, you are voting for a party and an MP. At the territorial level, you are just voting for your member, and councillors are also without parties at the city level.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Is that an effect derived from the voting system, or from the political culture?

[Andrew Robinson]

I think that, at the territorial level, the political culture determines the voting system, but the parties are forbidden by the way it's been set up in the legislature.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

It's an interesting aspect of this conversation. To me, it highlights the notion that the voting system is situated within a system of governance that is influenced by the political culture of the place, and there is not necessarily a direct correlation between a different voting system and the style of governance that is achieved because of that. Is that fair to say?

[Andrew Robinson]

Fair enough, but the two are linked.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Ms. Little, you mentioned voters being too busy to vote or thinking that politics doesn't matter, that whole idea of, “What the heck, it doesn't matter if I vote. Things are all the same, and nothing is going to change.”

In my mind, that is not necessarily a cause of people thinking their vote is wasted, but sometimes it's different from people believing their vote is wasted. Is it fair to say that sometimes we conflate those two things, those two reasons that people are perhaps disillusioned with politics?

[Lois Little]

It's a possibility. I think the StatsCan report that actually looked at the reasons why people didn't come out and vote didn't really drill down into those kinds of connections.

If you are sent this message that it really doesn't matter, then you are not going to make the effort. That is not a healthy democracy. We want 99.9% of eligible voters to vote. That's what we should all want—or maybe we should all want 100%.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I would agree, and I would agree that we want to find ways to better engage people in the political process outside of election time as well.

We've heard testimony throughout these last three months that has led us to believe there might be a slight correlation between voting system change and enhanced voter turnout, but there is no direct link, and there are all these other contending and competing factors, such as the style of governance that people perceive will come out of the vote they cast, and all kinds of other factors.

I don't really have any other questions.

Thank you very much for the chance to be here today. It has been incredibly fulfilling, in a way, to have the opportunity to come and learn both of the commonalties and of the differences between these two territories, and I genuinely look forward to the chance to visit Iqaluit later on in this process.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Monsieur Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before asking any questions, I also want to applaud the fact that we are in the Northwest Territories. Without telling you my life story, I have to say it has been a personal dream of mine to come to the Northwest Territories at least once in my life. We cannot spend 43 days here, but we can at least spend a few hours.

Earlier I went to the supermarket to buy a sandwich. I walked through the streets, where I crossed paths with my Bloc Québécois colleague. I even had to remind him of the time. I do not know whether it was a happy coincidence, but everyone I met in the street said hello. I do not know whether it is a local tradition to say hello to everyone. I do not think I am that popular here, but everyone said hello. That is something I will remember, and I will be pleased tell all my friends in Quebec City about it.

Now let us talk about the reason we are here today.

Earlier your former MP, who represented you in the House of Commons for nearly 10 years, advanced a very bold proposal that deserves at least some thought. I am not saying I am for or against it, but I am extremely curious about it.

He said that, if in a proportional voting system there were MPs to offset voting distortions, they should be members representing the north. I am not talking about the north in the sense of a territory, but as a geographic location, as a human reality. So there could be inter-territorial and inter-provincial representatives, as it were. There would be no boundaries within the provinces or territories but rather an overall northernness element.

I would like to have your comments on that.

First, Mr. Robinson, the floor is yours.