Electoral Reform Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please answer briefly.

What was the question about?

[Mireille Tremblay]

About the representation of women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

All right.

[Mireille Tremblay]

The problem is that, even if some women run, they will not necessarily be elected.

However, they do not constitute half of the candidates from all parties. If that were the case, that would be progress.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Sansoucy, you have the floor.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to recognize the citizens who are among us. Your involvement in this consultation is really important. Thank you for being here. I see that some have been here since early afternoon.

Thanks as well to both witnesses.

Ms. Dassonville, you have an entirely original point of view. Witnesses have told us from the start that they are opposed to mandatory voting. That is also an issue that you addressed, Professor Tremblay. We are told this is a matter of right, that people have a right not to vote. However, you have really given us food for thought. I have been wondering for a while why you have come and shaken up my opinions, but that discounts the fact that your arguments are very sound.

The fact is we all regret the low voter turnout rates at elections. I was previously a municipal councillor, and the situation was even worse then. You can imagine what it would have been if I had been a school commissioner.

If voting were mandatory, it would have to take place over several days for everyone to be able to vote.

Since I was a bit confused, I do not know whether you brought up the subject, but I would like to know whether this would go as far as to include electronic voting.

[Ruth Dassonville]

Not necessarily. There are countries where voting is mandatory, but where there is no electronic voting, and it works all the same.

In Belgium, the turnout rate is quite high, 90%, even though voting takes place over a single day. There is no early voting or electronic voting, but, as a result of their social conscience, people feel they have a duty to go and vote, even though no fines have been imposed on people who have failed to vote in Belgium since 2003. The fact remains that the voter turnout rate is still 90%.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

When we meet with citizens, we see, for example, that older people feel they have a duty to vote. Mandatory voting might ultimately result in that kind of change in culture. I understand this more clearly. Thank you.

Professor Tremblay, I agree with you that we have an obligation of result. That is very clear. However, you also said the system would have to be accepted by the population. I must say you are the second person before whom I have made that same observation. In Manitoba, one individual presented a concept that was mathematically valid but that I did not understand. I told my colleagues I was not good at math.

During an election campaign, part of our work as candidates to educate people. However, I find it hard to see how I could explain to a citizen that voting outcomes will be the result of mathematical calculations I could not explain to that person. That is where I have reservations.

However, as I find your work on democracy very interesting, I would nevertheless like to take advantage of the fact you are here.

You say your formula permits better representation of women and various cultures. Whether I agree with you or not, I would like you to tell me, based on the work you have done on democracy, why that is important.

[Mireille Tremblay]

The formula I am proposing does not support that.

What I am recommending is that, regardless of the formula proposed, arrangements be made so that women are also represented. I also include in that regard all persons with disabilities because they feel excluded and represent a significant segment of the population. As for ethnic diversity, as is often said, people say those people often feel excluded. They are among the groups that must be represented.

Perhaps we should also look at age groups. We have already raised the issue of giving the vote to people at the age of 16; that has been done elsewhere. However, are age groups represented? We see this in the parties. There is a youth section in all political parties. However, are the various age groups represented, whether they be seniors or people between 45 and 60 years of age? The question arises because we have to ensure there is that diversity.

As for men and women, we can say there are approximately the same numbers of men and women in every district. That can be done.

With respect to ethnic diversity, however, people in the communities tell us they feel excluded. How will we deal with those aspects? That is not easy. Will it be in the Montreal region or in the least urban regions? When we talk about ethnic diversity, does that mean that people come from Haiti, that they are anglophone and francophone, or that they have different ethnic or religious characteristics? This is important, but I do not know exactly how to answer that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You associate it with the fact that it will encourage citizen participation. Will that be the case?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Tremblay, please answer briefly.

[Mireille Tremblay]

Measures have to be taken to achieve that. Which ones? I do not know. However, we must encourage citizen participation and diversity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Speaking of citizen participation, I see we're past the time when we're supposed to have begun that portion of the evening. I'll be quite brief, so that we can get to that, because that's the most important part of what we're doing here today.

I have one quick question for each of our witnesses. Then I'll give away any time I have remaining, so we can get to the people.

Professor Tremblay, one of the recommendations that you make in your brief that we have here in front of us is that each party be required to ensure equal representation of men and women who run for office. Certainly that's a wonderful goal. It's certainly one that all parties should be doing more to encourage women to run for nominations within their party.

Of course, one of the challenges with saying that each party is required to ensure equal representation from each gender is the fact that all parties.... I know my party and I believe all parties obviously have nomination processes where it's open for anyone that wants to run. Often these nomination processes can be some of the most contentious parts of our democracy, and the most subject to complaints about fairness and these kinds of things.

How does that get put into practice? If there are 338 seats, that would mean we would require each party to have 169 men and 169 women on the ballot in an election. Let's say we've now elected the candidates for 318 of them and there's already 169 women that have been chosen to be candidates for one of the parties. Then you're telling the last 20 ridings to nominate someone and they all must be men.

I would assume there might be a woman somewhere in one of those ridings who was really intent on running and who's going to be a bit upset that she doesn't have that opportunity now. How would you suggest that be put into practice so the parties could do that fairly?

I'm honestly trying to see how it would work in practice. It's a great goal and one we should do everything we can to encourage, but I'm at a loss to see how that would work in practice when it comes to a party nomination.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Mireille Tremblay]

I understand it may be difficult to establish an equal list for each of the parties. We could set ratios, a minimum, for example, that might be between 45% and 55%. When you have three candidates on a list, it is hard to get half of them. So we could establish a margin that would be between 45% and 55%. However, that does not guarantee that 50% of those candidates will be elected.

Furthermore, the other dimension that should be considered is that the government also has some flexibility in this regard. It generally tries to meet that percentage or to approach it by appointing equal, or roughly equal, numbers of men and women to ministerial positions. I am talking about the executive level here. Some parties and governments make sure they meet that condition.

However, to solve the problem of nominating candidates, it is important first of all to develop women's desire to engage in politics and to guarantee them good working conditions that will help ensure enough female candidates run for political office.

We spoke about school boards and municipal councils. We see that, historically, women in politics very often start out by getting involved in municipalities and community organizations. Then people tell them they are capable of going further, and then they move up to another level.

So there is a history of skills development in women. We must take that fact into account and support the development of their skills and political careers. If I remember correctly, there are support organizations, in Quebec City, for example, to ensure that parties nominate enough female candidates.

We must also ensure that governments have women in ministerial positions and that men and women are equitably represented.

Ultimately, there is a range of measures that should be considered. However, the parties have an important role to play in recruitment.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

Professor Dassonville, in regard to compulsory voting which is obviously the main body of your research, you mentioned earlier that you felt it probably wouldn't significantly change the results in an election because, for the most part, the make-up of those who are not voting now, in terms of demographics and also in terms of the parties they support, probably would be quite similar to the electorate that is voting.

I was curious to know if you'd ever done or seen any research on the effect it's had on where someone's placed on the ballot. In other words, with mandatory voting I've heard often that sometimes people will go in and randomly make a selection on the ballot because they're forced to go and vote. I've heard it referred to as donkey voting, as in pin the tail on the donkey. I'm wondering if you've ever seen or done any studies on....They often talk about the person whose name is first or last on the ballot having an advantage. Has there ever been any studies on that? In other words, with mandatory voting, do we see more often a higher percentage of the first or last candidate on the ballots being chosen? I know there are ways that that can be remedied, obviously, but I'm curious as to whether—

[Ruth Dassonville]

For the Australian case, there are indications of a number of people, indeed, casting votes simply by ordering them from the top down on the list. There are always going to be a number of those votes in any kind of system. The easier your system is, the less of those kinds of votes you're going to get. If you think of a proportional system just causing a list vote, then there's not going to be such an effect of that.

Furthermore, if you have a “none of the above” option, those who really don't care have that option, and would either cast an invalid or a blank ballot or just make something up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Aldag.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I've really enjoyed the day in Montreal today and look forward to the audience questions and comments that are coming next. You have given us lots of new information.

I'll start with Professor Dassonville, because some of the mandatory voting knowledge that you bring is not an area we've heard a lot about. My first question for you is, have you also looked at mandatory registration versus mandatory voting and have you any thoughts on that?

[Ruth Dassonville]

If you decide that voting is mandatory, it should be made as easy as possible. That is why automatic registration would be the easiest way to go for that.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Would you be able to say registration is mandatory, but then the voting part is voluntary, or do they always go hand in hand?

[Ruth Dassonville]

They mostly go hand in hand, but not all the time. Chile is an interesting case where voting used to be mandatory, but registration not, and they just flipped it around recently. It's a more sensible thing to first make registration compulsory before moving on to the vote, obviously.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Okay.

The second one on mandatory voting, do they include the name, the party, or both on the ballots? Is there a consistency and how is that done?

[Ruth Dassonville]

I don't think there's consistency. Mandatory voting has been used in all sorts of electoral systems and all those ballots differ quite a lot, so I don't think there's consistency.