Electoral Reform Committee on July 7th, 2016

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Mayrand, I also would like to begin by thanking you for your service to Canada over so many years, and I share with Mr. Reid regret on your decision to leave your post at the end of this year. My questions are in light of your experience and your dedication to democracy.

The first question picks up on a point that you made just a moment ago in response to Mr. Aldag. On the changes that were made in the former Bill C-23, the Fair Elections Act, you pointed to one that limits your role in education. Am I inferring too much in that, as I recall, in Bill C-23 there was a very tight timeline between when an election happened and when staff could be hired and trained? I would see that as another barrier here. Could you provide us either now or later with a complete list of the things that need to be changed under the current Canada Elections Act to ensure that a new electoral system could be rolled out and you and your office could perform the role of training and education both for the staff of Elections Canada and for the public?

[Marc Mayrand]

I think you will find that in my report that will be released probably at the end of September. It will contain a number of recommendations that I think are needed to modernize our system, improve service to electors, and provide some flexibility to Elections Canada, to returning officers, to be able to adapt the service offered to the particular environment in which we have to conduct the election. You will see a series of recommendations coming this fall.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

The other question is about a consideration that I hadn't thought of as being particularly significant in changing voting systems, and that's your second point on learning the results of the election quickly. I do know that in New Zealand on their first occasion of using mixed member proportional, having voted for that system, and wanting that system, and having a high degree of civic literacy around the question, New Zealanders were still surprised that it was some time before the parties figured out for themselves how they would govern, and what coalition they would form. The question to you is, are you speaking to how long it takes to count the ballots, or how long it takes the parties themselves to know how they're going to put together a coalition in the case that no one party has a majority?

[Marc Mayrand]

I'm speaking as the administrator of the election. It's the time required to count the ballots, depending on the system, again I don't want to generalize but subject to the system. You can look at what's currently happening in Australia where there are significant delays in computing, counting, the ballots. One of the main reasons there is that the contests are so close that in their preferential ballot system you have to allocate preferences and that requires several passes at the count.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

That reminds me of the infamous 2000 election where the first past the post system south of the border ran afoul of butterfly ballots. I take your point, it's worth making sure we consider that.

Following up on the logistics questions for Mr. Reid, I wondered if there's a ballpark figure for what it costs the Canadian government to run a one-off referendum, not attached to a general election.

[Marc Mayrand]

Again, we have limited experience, the last one being in 1992. Our estimate is that under the current Referendum Act it would be around $300 million to run a referendum.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

As you've mentioned many times, there are a lot of different systems that would qualify for proportional representation systems. Some might not require redrawing any riding boundaries, some might. If you group together existing electoral districts and draw a line around some that already exist, is that a relatively simple exercise?

[Marc Mayrand]

It could be a simple exercise, and again that's speculative, but there may be a few, right? You still have to draw those lines and you still have to consider community of interest, geography, and all the factors that the commission needs to hear. I'm sure it will generate some debate, so I believe public consultation should happen on those regional groupings. It may be possible to accelerate the process, by how much I'm not in a position to say right now. We may save a few months, but we're not going to cut it down from 24 to three months, I doubt it very much.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go back to the Liberals now, Ms. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Mayrand, for being here today. It's nice to see you again.

One of the mandates that has been given to this committee is accessibility and inclusiveness. I was happy to know that in 2007, even after significant pressure from the Conservatives, you didn't alter the voting procedure to require Muslim women to remove their veil before voting. What changes can we make to the Canada Elections Act to ensure that we are inclusive and that we respect all the diversity that we have in Canada?

[Marc Mayrand]

We need to look at various barriers. If you want to make a fundamental difference in accessibility, and that's why I mentioned it earlier, you need to seriously look at online voting. Because various groups are facing barriers—and again I'm not denying the digital divide, we need to address that of course—if you look at the disabled community, we have 3.5 million electors who suffer various degrees of disability in this country. Technology would allow most of them to vote secretly and independently, which is the main objective that these groups have. If we really want to make a breakthrough, I would suggest exploring online voting more aggressively and how we make it an option for these electors.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Okay.

[Marc Mayrand]

There may be other things that we can do here and there, I'm not suggesting there's nothing else, but most of the other things will be quite incremental and not necessarily make a major difference. That's on the side of the electors. On the side of political parties and their representation in all these things, there are also suggestions that could be considered in terms of making the candidate lists more representative and more diverse in representing our society.

You will see in my recommendation report—I think this is Parliament, I can share that with you—I will be making a recommendation to allow reimbursement of expenditures by parties or campaigns for making their information more accessible. Again, Parliament will decide whether that's appropriate or suitable, but that's certainly one issue that has been raised.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

You mean in order to become a candidate?

[Marc Mayrand]

There will be aspects in order to become a candidate, but also in order to reach out.

Much of the campaign information is not available in formats that are accessible to those who have a disability, so we will be putting a recommendation forward to propose that we consider reimbursing expenditures to campaigns that invest in making their information available in multiple, accessible formats. This is a small thing that we can do here and there, along with really taking a hard look at online voting.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

I think that's good motivation for most of the parties, to make sure that we have all that information available.

You're thinking the main barrier that people face is accessibility and, although you have stated that for this next election you're not prepared at this point to do it, that this committee should seriously take a look at giving you more direction on online voting—

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

—and, by May 2017, you have an adequate time at least for electoral reform as far as changing the voting process is concerned. I'm happy to hear that because it gives us some incentive and direction as to what we can do within that time, and I think we can make some good recommendations, good changes.

You talked a lot about security and social acceptability. I think the world is starting to move toward finding it socially acceptable to do things online. People make million dollar deals online and transfer money all the time, so it's hard for me to understand why we can't figure out a secure way to vote online. I think people would come on board since it would open it up to so many more people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Unfortunately, we'll have to go to the next question, but it's a good thought, and we can pick up on it in a bit.

It is now over to Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I get to my question, I'd like to take a moment to remember J.-Jacques Samson, a prominent and influential political reporter in Quebec for the past 40 years. He was active in the municipal, provincial and federal arenas. As an accomplished, respected, and trusted journalist, he had an impact on people. On behalf of all of my colleagues, I would like to extend my sympathies to J.-Jacques's family.

My humble respects, Mr. Mayrand. It's a pleasure to meet you, as well as Mr. Perrault and Mr. Roussel. Through you, I would also like to acknowledge the thousands of Canadians who, every four years or, rather, whenever an election is called, work so diligently and methodically under tremendous pressure given that time is of the essence. We often forget that it is thanks to thousands of Canadians that we enjoy a viable, acceptable, and effective democracy. More specifically, I'd like to commend, if I may, the returning officer for the Louis-Saint-Laurent riding, Hélène Dion, and her team.

Mr. Mayrand, in response to my Bloc Québécois colleague's question about online voting, you mentioned the need for a certain level of social acceptability.

Do you think changing the voting system requires some social acceptability?

[Marc Mayrand]

I believe so. If we want Canadians to have confidence in the electoral system, we need to make sure it's one they accept.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

How do you think we can achieve the social acceptability you speak of as we make changes to the voting system?

[Marc Mayrand]

I will let you and the rest of parliamentarians, our elected representatives, make that decision.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Earlier you said that it would take at least 26 months to make the changes or, rather, that 26 months was an acceptable time frame in which to make the eventual changes. Is that correct?