Electoral Reform Committee on July 7th, 2016

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you.

I know we've been talking a lot about online voting today. Given your background and the work you've done in the past, it's something that we want to hear more about.

I come from the post-secondary education sector so engaging youth in the democratic process is really important to me. You mentioned earlier that if we can get students or young people engaged early enough they become lifelong voters. I know that in a local CEGEP near me in the riding of Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne we had the booth set up specifically so that they could go to vote, which was a great success.

But we also have in my riding an aging senior population, so I'd like to get your ideas, again, on how we can leverage the technology so that the youth we've just engaged—we had the highest level for young people turning out in the last election—are kept engaged, but we are also mindful of an aging population who are going to have mobility issues.

Can you elaborate a little bit on that and the importance of that? In the next four years and in the next eight years we are going to have that problem.

[Marc Mayrand]

I believe the problem may be exacerbated by the social policy that we have to keep seniors in their homes. We're talking more and more about home care providers, and this means that those seniors will no longer be living in common residences. That means to some extent there will be barriers to their voting. I can't service residential homes. I can hardly service every single Canadian at home, and that is a problem I see coming over the next decade, I would say.

We are already getting increasing demands for home-bound voting and if not this committee, Parliament, at some time needs to consider how we are going to allow people who have voted all their lives to continue to vote. This is their act of citizenship, so how are we going to maintain that accessibility for them?

You will find that I am a little bit pushy but I think, again, in 10 to 20 years these seniors will be used to technology, and again, online voting may be part of the solution for them, so there is a link with all these things.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Absolutely.

On the flip side, if Canada did want to implement online voting—and now I'm talking about folks who are in rural areas who may not have broadband Internet—what would be some of the barriers for our being able to implement something? Again, I bring up maybe lack of Internet or good Internet access.

Could you elaborate on some of the other barriers?

[Marc Mayrand]

Connectivity, even though it's improving all the time, remains an issue in many parts of the country. As I mentioned earlier, electronic tabulation may have its limits for very remote areas for the simple fact that connectivity is not always up to par. I think that's a government as a whole issue that needs to be prioritized. I believe there are various programs to improve broadband access and speedy Internet access across the country and it's an effort that needs to be continued.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

This may seem like a little bit of a bizarre question but in your capacity as the Chief Electoral Officer, what would you recommend our role be in terms of helping to educate? You have 338 members of Parliament across Canada. You mentioned that you're not able to educate those over the age of 18, but what could we be doing to assist the Chief Electoral Officer in increasing engagement and so on and so forth?

[Marc Mayrand]

Aside from amending the legislation? I think an important aspect is this. When we study non-voters, one of the things that comes out is that because of all sorts of reasons there is less and less personal contact between electors and candidates. Any time you show up at a school, any time you show up at a community activity, there is evidence that it makes a difference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's very interesting.

[Marc Mayrand]

I'd be happy to share that with you, but it does make a difference in terms of engaging young people, particularly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's very encouraging for all of us because we do a lot of that and we always want to do more.

Monsieur Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mayrand, I'd like to turn to the readjustment of electoral boundaries. You're an expert, and as we all know, it's a very delicate issue. I want to make this very clear for everyone: if we don't support change, it doesn't mean that we are biased towards a more favourable option, as elected representatives, or that we are engaging in political mathematics. It is simply that we have formed an attachment with the people we represent.

I'm not going to tell you my life story, but back in 2012, when I was an MLA, I lost the Valcartier and Shannon portions of my riding, Chauveau. That saddened me greatly, one reason being that the area was home to the anglophone community, whom I was very fond of and represented to the best of my ability, like the rest of my constituents. It really had an effect on me. It had nothing to do with the numbers. At the end of the day, I lost those parts of my riding.

That's why, when we talk about electoral boundaries, it's important to understand that our positions don't stem from political calculations but, rather, a reality that we need to respect—the underlying socio-demographic fabric of the riding we represent. If the government decided not to hold a referendum on changing the voting system and to introduce proportional representation, proportional-preferential-personalized voting, single transferable voting, a list system, or preferential voting, changes would have to be made to the electoral map in most cases.

That brings me to an issue you are no doubt familiar with, the situation that arose in 2004 in the Acadie—Bathurst riding. The Chief Electoral Officer at the time had readjusted the electoral boundaries, a change that was challenged by not only the member for the riding, but also members of the local chamber of commerce and other constituents. Here again, I am setting aside any partisan motives. The matter even made its way to the courts, which sided with the constituents, who argued that electoral boundaries should not be touched for very specific reasons.

If the government decides to proceed with an alternative voting system that requires a redistribution of electoral boundaries, would you be prepared to deal with court decisions, which could, once again, lead to further delays?

[Marc Mayrand]

Elections Canada normally doesn't get involved in those kinds of disputes. Obviously, they can have repercussions, but the fact remains that those decisions are made by independent commissions. That's very different from the provincial system, I want to stress. The independent commissions have to take into account factors such as communities of interest and, as in the case you brought up, language communities.

In that specific case, the Federal Court found that the commission had not given sufficient consideration to that criterion and asked the commission to do the job over again. Since the commission had been dissolved by that point, another one had to be formed. I won't get into all the details.

Situations of that nature can occur, but they are rare, if not very rare. Our legal system ensures that those who feel their rights have been violated as a result of a decision have the ability to launch a court challenge.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I am asking you the question precisely because the matter is outside your jurisdiction. You're essentially being held hostage by an independent body that can make a decision to redistribute electoral boundaries. You are forced to deal with that decision, which has the potential to be challenged. Earlier, you were talking about the 26-month timetable and the fact that it wasn't a generous amount of time, calling it a minimum. But this involves more than a minimum amount of time.

[Marc Mayrand]

Clearly, anything can happen. We always have to take the context into account. Right now, we are talking about 12 months. If you add to the mix legal challenges to redistribution, it could definitely change things for certain parts of the country.

Would it bring the process to a complete halt? I'm not sure. I'd need to know what the challenge was about.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I'd like to wrap up by thanking Mr. Mayrand and his team. I'd also like to highlight the fact that making changes to democratic institutions is a very delicate business. It's essential to have time on our side. In fact, working under a tight deadline is the worst thing we could do. It's the same in baseball: having the time to do things right is critical. Time shouldn't factor into a decision as important as this one when we're dealing with the future of our democracy. It's essential that we change the voting system. It's something we hold very dear, so that's why we need to take the time to do it right. My understanding of the Chief Electoral Officer's remarks is that we should take the time to look closely at the big picture before making a decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That brings us to our ninth inning, so to speak.

Ms. Sahota, you may go ahead.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

I was very interested in the comment you made to my colleague's question regarding engagement in the community of MPs, and the outcome of civic engagement. You said that you had numbers and studies for that. Is that something that you can provide this committee with? I'd be very interested in looking at that.

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes, definitely.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

Moving on, as my colleague mentioned getting more engagement, whether it is youth or seniors, I've also seen newcomers who have become citizens in this country. One organization in my community has informed me they've come across people who have been in their apartment for years, whether they're disabled or whatever, because they don't know how to use the services and they don't know how to move around. That's a gap in our system, and we can educate newcomers about that. How about educating new citizens about the voting process? Is that something Elections Canada can do?

[Marc Mayrand]

We try to do it. Particularly during the election campaign, we try to reach out. We publish basic information on voting during a federal election in 35 heritage languages. These languages are revised periodically to reflect the immigration demographic in the country. We also try very hard to recruit personnel who reflect the diversity of a riding.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

How so, and what does that personnel do?

[Marc Mayrand]

That personnel will do the day-to-day tasks, but they will be able to speak the language of electors in that riding. When they are a large community, we'll make a special effort to reach out to leaders in the community so they refer staff who can speak some of the languages. We have community relations officers, younger officers, who also function in some ridings—not across the country, in some ridings—where there is high diversity, who are tasked to reach out to community groups or community associations, again making sure that they have the information they need to inform their members. We have different initiatives and programs to try to reach out to new Canadians.

One thing about new Canadians, the evidence again shows that the first generation of new Canadians has a lower participation rate, but it picks up very quickly. It seems to be a single generation. There doesn't seem to be a generational transfer there. In a way it's positive. That being said, we need to continue to work on first-generation Canadians.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Yes.

I have a quick comment. I did notice that in this last election many people in my riding were housebound and didn't know how they could get service in their home. There are some communication issues there that we can improve on.

[Marc Mayrand]

Communication and capacity. You need to understand that the test in the act is that the person who is housebound could not put an X on the ballot. That's a very narrow interpretation. Many of the calls we're getting are from people who could mark a ballot, but cannot move out of their home. They consider themselves housebound. But that's not the test in the Elections Act. Sorry to be so technical, but that's what we're facing.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Okay.

I know you've been avoiding giving your preference on any system, but are there pitfalls or things that you can caution us about? I know that in the report and in your presentation you talked a little about Canadians being used to getting their results on election night and not wanting to wait any longer. That's a pitfall: we may perhaps be steering away from certain systems over others. Are there there other cautionary tales you can tell us from other countries?

[Marc Mayrand]

In my mind the most important one—and I think the committee is setting itself up for that—is this. I would not underestimate the lack of information, understanding, and education about our electoral process. Most people see it as marking a ballot, not necessarily understanding all the ramifications it entails. I think in changing from a system that is relatively simple and easy to understand from a voter perspective, we should not underestimate the level of education that is required for people to start having a discussion on these matters.