Evidence of meeting #40 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nunavut.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

James Arreak  Chief Executive Officer, Executive Services, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.) (Interpretation
Brian Fleming  Executive Director, Nunavut Association of Municipalities
John Merritt  Legal Counsel, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.
Kuthula Matshazi  Councillor, Town of Iqaluit
Terry Forth  As an Individual
Brad Chambers  As an Individual
Jack Anawak  As an Individual
Paul Okalik  Member of the Legislative Assembly, Constituency of Iqaluit-Sinaa, As an Individual
Franco Buscemi  As an Individual
Victor Tootoo  Baffin Regional Chamber of Commerce
Peter Williamson  As an Individual
Thomas Ahlfors  As an Individual
Aaron Watson  As an Individual

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Mr. Aldag is next.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

This has been very interesting.

I want to start by clarifying and building on what we've been hearing from a number of the discussions already, and it's simply that we've heard two different versions. One would be to take the territory and divide it into two because of the geography. The other would be to have two members for the existing one riding. What would be the benefits or strengths and weaknesses? Maybe both Mr. Arreak and Mr. Fleming could speak to that, because I think there would be a different approach there. Would one be preferred over the other?

2:40 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Executive Services, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.) (Interpretation

James Arreak

As I said before, Nunavut comprises three regions, so it would be difficult to try to sell a regional approach. That's my first response.

I don't know if Mr. Fleming has anything else to add.

2:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Nunavut Association of Municipalities

Brian Fleming

No. Keep going.

2:40 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Executive Services, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.) (Interpretation

James Arreak

When you have two seats, from that point of view I think it would be difficult. I'd be curious about the point Mr. Cullen raised about breaking the barriers of representation that worked for the Maori people. I'm not sure if he's here to confirm that information, but I'd be curious about how that system works, if it's going to be imposed in our jurisdiction.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

It could be two members for the territory. I think Iqaluit is the main centre, so you could end up with both members coming from this community. Would that be an issue to the other two regions? We'd need to be aware of that.

Notwithstanding the concerns Mr. Reid has put out there, I also want to confirm that if in the ideal world we had two members for Nunavut based on the huge geography, then the second piece of it would also to be looking at those three members for specifically the Inuit population, not just for Nunavut but across the Inuit population in Canada.

Perfect. I just wanted to clarify that.

There is another piece of clarification. Mr. Arreak, in your comments, you talked about the referendum question. I was trying to get what you had said, and I actually didn't get it, so could you give me your thoughts again, either you or Mr. Merritt? Take me through what the recommendation was on the referendum question.

2:40 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.

John Merritt

Do you mean a referendum in a general sense, not the referendum that took place in the early—

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

Yes, in the general sense, moving forward.

2:40 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.

John Merritt

As I understand it, what Mr. Arreak said is that NTI is mindful that a referendum can be a very divisive exercise in any democratic circumstances, and in Canada we've seen some fairly unhappy referendum exercises. I think Mr. Arreak recited some of the examples. The Charlottetown Accord was a disappointment. It didn't contribute to Canadian unity. It actually left a lot of bad feeling behind. There were issues around conscription and the referendum about that. Perhaps that was a necessary way of dealing with that issue at the time when Mackenzie King was prime minister, but there was certainly a legacy of bad feeling about that.

We've seen in recent times, like everyone else, the vote in Britain on Brexit. These aren't necessarily nation-building exercises. They might start out with everybody's high intentions, but the other side of it, I guess, as Mr. Arreak emphasized, is that at NTI we have a high respect for Parliament's role in making important national decisions, and if each party adopted a very clear alternative before the next election, then Canadians would have a chance to make a decision as to whether they think that party's proposal should be part of putting that party into power.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

That's the piece I missed. I thought that's what it was, but I just wanted to confirm it.

Just before I run out of time, Mr. Fleming, you took a very strong position on mandatory voting. Simply put, I heard there was no support at this time. Could you give us your thoughts on why you've taken that position?

2:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Nunavut Association of Municipalities

Brian Fleming

It could be a great way to get greater voter turnout: you have to vote if you're 18 or 16 or whatever the age is. You have to vote. However, I just think there are too many problems inherent in dealing with, for example, “I didn't have a babysitter, so I couldn't come in to vote.”

If it's going to be mandatory, I think you need very clear guidelines in terms of why someone couldn't vote, because as I understand it, there would just be a voters list. If James here didn't vote, we could say we were going to fine him $200 because he didn't come in to vote, and James says, “Well, I didn't have a babysitter.” It's that kind of thing.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Richards.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of questions.

First, Mr. Arreak, in your opening remarks you were talking about how first past the post might favour candidates with more extreme positions, and I was curious about your thoughts in terms of that, related to more proportional systems. That's often one of the criticisms of proportional systems: they tend to favour putting in place parties that have extreme viewpoints. We've seen it in Europe with neo-Nazi types of parties getting seats. There was an article recently about the upcoming Iceland elections and how the Pirate Party might even become the governing party as a result of having those single-issue candidates. In some countries you might see the taxi drivers party, for example, getting seats.

I think that has been one of the arguments against those types of systems, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Of course, even those parties with just a few seats can end up having a lot of power in a government, in terms of coalitions that are created and things like that.

I know you made that comment in relation to first past the post. I was curious what your thoughts were in relation to proportional systems, with more extreme parties getting in. Would that be something you'd be concerned about, with that type of system?

2:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Executive Services, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.) (Interpretation

James Arreak

Thank you for the question, Mr. Richards. Yes, absolutely. I think the mood tends to kind of go up the middle on a lot of the issues.

We are survivalists and tend to make decisions based on the chances of surviving. Does it require extreme positions? Sometimes it requires extreme positions if it's helpful and if it's going to give us the chance to survive, but when it comes to unhelpful groups that come to complain or to misrepresent who we are, that would be a very serious misrepresentation. From that point of view, yes, I think I would be concerned about something that is presented that would skew people away from what would help the public versus what something that just represents a very small extreme group that suddenly becomes very popular and powerful, which is dangerous.

That would be my response.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you.

Could I ask you as well about...? I don't think you had a chance to respond, as I don't remember hearing your response.

Mr. Fleming, you had your organization's perspective on mandatory voting and online voting, but I don't think Mr. Arreak or Mr. Merritt have had a chance to give comment on behalf of their organizations on online voting or mandatory voting. Do you have any comments there?

2:45 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.

John Merritt

Our organization hasn't given that issue a great deal of attention, so I think anything we say here wouldn't be based on any conversations sufficient to give assurance, except as a completely impromptu remark. I guess it's one of those things we'll take away from this presentation to think about.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We'll go now to Ms. Romanado, please.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

I'd like to thank all three witnesses for being here today. It is my first time in Iqaluit, and I'm excited to be here. Mr. Tootoo, it's a pleasure to be in your riding. I hope it's not my last visit, and I'd like to extend my condolences for the loss of your mayor, Mr. Pearson.

Talking about the vast size of Nunavut, Mr. Arreak, you mentioned the population is spread over 22 communities. When I look at the size of Nunavut and I look at my cute little riding of Longueuil—Charles-Lemoyne on the south shore of Montreal, with 39 square kilometres, I think you could probably fit that in your backyard right here.

I'd like to know some of the challenges that you face in terms of voter participation. You talked a little about Internet connectivity, or lack thereof, but what are some of the other challenges? I'm looking at some of the demographics for Nunavut, where you have a very young population. I'm looking at the participation rates in your federal election. The last election was a nice big boom of 62.54% participation, but previous elections were not that high. In fact, you have two elections over the last 12 years that had less than 50% participation.

If you could go through some of the other challenges that you face to get over the barriers for participation, that would be helpful for us, because we have heard different feedback from different communities.

2:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Executive Services, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.) (Interpretation

James Arreak

We haven't spoken of the disconnect between the voters and the government. For example, how relevant is this to me on a daily basis? The majority of the Nunavut population is under the age of 25. I like the fact that you have noticed this, because we are a very young population, a very young territory, with vast challenges.

Programs like the Nunavut Sivuniksavut, or NS, have helped prepare some of our young people to become more acquainted with who they are and what the Nunavut agreement says. It's like the French system for the in-between years. I can't remember what they call it, but the young people who have graduated from that program know how to become a productive part of society and how you can contribute.

When consultations come to your community, the people aren't engaged, because the methodology of the consultation process is absolutely foreign. We try to help government say this is how you engage communities. Sometimes the communities are over-consulted, and consultation fatigue is going on in the people. It's a “What's another election day?” kind of thing.

There are those kinds of challenges, I think, along with what Brian mentioned on the lack of infrastructure.

I don't know if there's anything else John or Brian wants to add to your question.

2:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Nunavut Association of Municipalities

Brian Fleming

James mentioned disconnect. Although we have a lot of young people in Nunavut, there's a disconnect there, certainly with TV. I'm pretty sure most homes across Nunavut still have one or two elders in them, and in that case they would probably be listening to Inuktitut. That would be my bet.

The young people are probably not aware of all the issues going on when we go to the polls. Some years it turns out really well, especially if a big trump card's at issue. Other years it's a mishmash of a whole lot of different things; no one can get their head around it, and there's probably a low turnout.

You would have to check the weather on those low-turnout days, because if you had an election and a whiteout happened in seven of those communities, very few people would get to the polling station. The town would be closed. Go vote at your own risk. You need to check the weather on those dates, because I'm sure that could be a major factor.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Boulerice, please.

2:50 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, gentlemen, thank you very much for being here with us this afternoon.

Like my colleagues, I want to extend my condolences for the loss of your former mayor, who was greatly appreciated from what we hear.

This is my first visit to Nunavut and Iqaluit. I hope it will not be my last. I find this vast and magnificent territory I am seeing for the first time very impressive.

The committee is coming to the end of its travels and its consultations. We have been just about everywhere in Canada. Our mandate is to try to find a better voting system for the next federal elections. In the last one, 18 million people voted. Of that number, nine million votes went to elect 338 members, but the other nine million votes were cast for nothing, in fact, since they were not reflected in Parliament.

As you were saying earlier, Mr. Arreak, one candidate may be up against three or four others. He can thus win with only 30% or 35% of the vote. In such a case, he or she was not elected by the majority of his fellow citizens in the riding, regardless of its size, even if it is a very large one like this one.

Which leads me to the following question. You have been a member of the territorial Parliament. I would like to know what lessons you would like to share from that experience that might guide us in our work and research. A little earlier you said that the federal government functions in a manner that is not at all in keeping with the values of the population of Nunavut. I would like you to explain that further.

2:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Executive Services, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.) (Interpretation

James Arreak

Qujannamiik. Thank you. Merci.

To respond to Mr. Boulerice, I am not an elected member. I ran once, but I lost.

I share your concern. How do we get people to come out to vote? That has been our organization's biggest question as well. Sometimes that falls on the candidates themselves: whether they are popular, whether they can speak eloquently and connect with the people. That seems to be correlated with the number of people who go out to vote. That's a real connection there.

Territorially, sometimes trying to vote from a party-line perspective seems to be a bit of a new thing for Inuit: “Okay, I like these guys, so I'll go with these guys and vote for the party line. They seem popular.” Sometimes people go that way. Sometimes people just say, “Oh, they're for sure”, and there are very few of those.

We are in this together in trying to get people to go out and vote. Their votes do count. It's a voice being expressed, and that's people practising their freedom.

How much money did we spend last year? For 18 million voters, it was probably billions of dollars. That's probably a $2-billion question for us as well.

Maybe Hunter has things to contribute about his experience with the process. I don't know if my colleagues have anything to add.

2:55 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Arreak.

We have been wondering for some time about how to encourage voting and participation in the electoral process. You told us that it could be difficult to vote sometimes because of the weather and the distances involved. In other meetings, people have suggested that the vote take place on a holiday.

What do you think?