Evidence of meeting #20 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

October 26th, 2006 / 9 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

Good morning, everyone.

Before we start the meeting today, there are a few procedural things I'd like to suggest to members, if they are in agreement.

First of all, this meeting room was supposed to be televised. There's no need for us to televise this meeting, because it's mainly to deal with procedure. If members are okay with it, we'll have the cameras turned off.

Are members in agreement with that? I don't see any objections.

The second thing is that our meeting will terminate at 11 o'clock, given the fact that there's another committee meeting here. I wanted members to be aware of that. I do think we can manage to do things within an hour, at least I'm hoping to, since the only topic at hand is Bill C-288, and there are no witnesses before the committee.

As well, if the members are in agreement, I'd like to have ten minutes given to each individual, so that we don't go over the allotted time of two hours.

If members are in agreement with that, we'll proceed in that fashion. If there are any other questions, concerns, or motions, I'd like to entertain them. Otherwise, who would like to be the first to speak?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Chair, I'd like to raise a point of order based on the ruling that was made at the last committee meeting to entertain this motion by Mr. Rodriguez today. Clearly, Mr. Chair, the protocol and procedures established by this committee more than suggested--confirmed--the fact that there is a series of protocols that must be followed to entertain, in this case Bill C-288.

This committee has determined, first of all, that motions should be given advance notice of 24 hours, although there is an exception to that, I understand. If the motion being presented could be considered business under review or current business, it could be entertained. But quite clearly, the protocol of this committee also suggests that motions must be given in writing in both official languages. This was not done.

Mr. Chair, if I may continue, I think it's quite clear that the protocol as established by this committee was not followed. From time to time rulings are made in committees that are in error, and I suggest this one was done in all good faith. There was quite a bit of confusion at the end of the meeting in which this motion was entertained. Another committee was trying to get into the room, and this committee was just trying to complete its business. But all that being said, Mr. Chair, the end result was that a ruling was made to entertain Mr. Rodriguez's motion to start discussions on Bill C-288 when in fact his motion is, in my opinion, out of order because he did not follow proper protocol.

Mr. Chair, one may argue that protocol isn't that important to follow. I would suggest that in this Parliament, in this place, protocol is extremely important to follow. There is a reason, Mr. Chair, that under Westminster parliamentary procedures we have procedures and rules that all parliamentarians are bound to follow. The bible on procedures and practices, Marleau and Montpetit, is an extremely lengthy document, as everyone here knows.

9 a.m.

An hon. member

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

I'm on a point of order, Mr. Chair. I believe my point of order takes precedence.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

Let's hear him out on his point of order, and then I'll have to make a decision and ruling as well, so we can proceed.

Please.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

Could you be brief, because we want to move forward, at least with a decision on how we're going to proceed.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My understanding is that I have the floor and that I can speak to this point of order. I'm attempting to do that.

Marleau and Montpetit is the bible of this place. It is an extremely lengthy and well-researched document that all members from time to time refer to when disputes arise in the House and in committee. The Speaker of the House and chairs of standing committees refer to Marleau and Montpetit, because it is the principal reference on which dispute resolution is based. I would suggest, Mr. Chair, that if we start ignoring proper procedure and protocol, we put the entire parliamentary system in jeopardy. Therefore, I firmly believe that the ruling made at the conclusion of the last meeting, though apparently made in good faith, was certainly incorrect.

I have attended and have been a member of several standing committees. I'm not as long-standing a member of Parliament as some of the other members of the committee, but in the two-plus years that I have been a member of Parliament I've learned a few things. I've learned to respect the rules of this place and to hold them in high esteem. Yet it appears that in this case the very rules we are bound by, the protocols we follow, have been ignored.

From time to time there will invariably be differences of opinion. That is the nature of politics. It's the very nature of this place. As has been evidenced in both the 39th Parliament and preceding Parliaments, from time to time these differences of opinion can get quite heated. That's why the rules of this place, our procedures and protocols, are so vitally important. They ensure decorum and a proper working environment for all parliamentarians.

I would point out that the procedures, protocols, and practices of this place may from time to time irritate—perhaps even infuriate—some members. But they are available to all members, because they are the rules by which we operate.

I want to give an example or two of what is happening here and now. We have noticed that over the course of the last week or two, certain members of the opposition have resorted to a series of procedures and procedural tactics that are completely within their rights to use—concurrence motions. In my opinion, these members have consistently used concurrence motions to delay the proper functioning of this government.

I found it interesting that just two days ago the chief opposition whip delivered a concurrence motion on a report submitted by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. In her introduction to this motion, the opposition whip stated...and as most members will remember, this was a concurrence motion dealing with a procedure and House affairs report on making the provisional Standing Orders, under which we had been operating, permanent.

In our introduction to this motion, the opposition whip stated that the Standing Orders are there for a very important reason. She illuminated a number of those reasons, but one of them, Mr. Chair, was that Standing Orders are there to allow the government to govern.

Mr. Chair, I would suggest that this is an extremely important provision of the Standing Orders because that's what Canadians do during elections. Whether it be a minority or a majority government, Canadians elect their representatives to this place to fulfill, among many other things, the campaign commitments made during the election process.

I would suggest, Mr. Chair, even though this 39th Parliament is a minority government, that the people of Canada who elected a Conservative minority truly want to see, or at least have the opportunity to debate, many of the legislative initiatives this Conservative government wishes to put forward. One of those initiatives, Mr. Chair, and one of the major initiatives most Canadians are aware of, is the Clean Air Act.

Mr. Chair, by listening to media interviews and panel discussions by members of the opposition, my understanding is that the opposition is not planning to allow the government to even introduce that legislation for debate at committee. I've heard many members, some of whom are sitting in this room, state unequivocally that they plan to kill this bill, not even let it pass second reading, to prevent the Clean Air Act being presented to committee.

Mr. Chair, I assume--and I can only assume--this is the motivation behind the motion in question to which I am speaking, on why the opposition members, particularly from the official opposition, are attempting to introduce Bill C-288, a private member's bill dealing with Kyoto--

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

I don't mean to interrupt you, Mr. Lukiwski, but we mentioned at the beginning we would be sticking to 10 minutes, so your 10 minutes are up.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

My understanding--and please correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Chair--is that on a point of order there is no time limit.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

You're absolutely right, there's no time order, but the chair can also make a recommendation. I heard no objection at the time I made the recommendation, so I'm sticking to 10 minutes--unless, at the time when I raised it, you objected to it.

I tried to let the committee know how we were going to proceed with this meeting and I heard no objection at that time.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Chair, I would like to challenge that ruling.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

It's a point of order. He can speak unlimited times.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

I made a recommendation to the committee. There was no objection at the time the recommendation occurred.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Recommendations in respect to the length of --

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

No, I will respect the authority of the committee, if that is the wish of the committee. My understanding from the clerk is that I can do that.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I think I'm next on the point of order.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

The chair has been challenged, and so there has to be a vote. There's no debate on the challenge, so I will call for a vote.

I am operating within the information that was provided to me by the clerk and I am just stating the fact that this is what is. I put a proposal--

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

With respect to the comments you made about the 10-minute length of time, there is no challenge or necessity to challenge--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

Sorry, there is no debate on the challenge. There's been a challenge of the chair, so we'll have to have a vote. Sorry, Mr. Vellacott, we'll have to have a vote. Let's have a vote.

All those in favour of upholding the ruling of the chair? I said a 10-minute limitation for each person.

(Motion agreed to)

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

The very last was a point of order--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

No, I mentioned it would be a 10-minute limitation.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

[Inaudible--Editor]...you can't do that.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

Mr. Vellacott, you just did, because we just voted on that motion.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

I didn't vote on that.