Environment Committee on Feb. 5th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I believe Mr. Cullen was first, and then Mr. Harvey.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I can see how this could potentially turn into another two months. I just caution the committee against starting to reconsider at too fundamental a level the role of the Commission of the Environment. As Mr. Godfrey said in reading out parts of the mandate a little earlier, I actually think we're talking about working around the edges rather than approaching a new concept or anything like that.

The only suggestion I would have for the witness list is perhaps to have somebody who uses the commissioner's reports in their work to effect change. One of Ms. Fraser's criticisms was that the government hadn't responded enough. I think the PCO might be an interesting witness. But I think we should have someone we know has got much experience using the commissioner's reports to try to effect change, especially if that has been one of the criticisms, so that we talk to this person about how the effectiveness of the reports could be improved. I know that some in the NGO community tend to use them quite a bit. We'll cast about for a name or two of someone who has a track record with the reports, has seen them applied or not applied, and has got some thoughts on what will happen if you change this and that.

But again, I go back and caution against starting to dive deep into the mandate and the legislation.

I think Mr. Bigras' comment about the official languages is a good one; we have a model that makes sense.

On the mandate questions, let's not go too far. I'm one who believes the mandate is actually pretty clearly set. It's just the technical structure that needs to be changed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Yes, I think keeping it simple is probably something we should consider. If we get too far out and get too many recommendations, first of all, we'd be taking more than one meeting of the committee and we'd probably be venturing into an area where we really don't need to go. So I think we'll take that advice, certainly, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Harvey, I know you had a comment as well.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Regarding our list of suggested witnesses, I think it would be more appropriate to hear from the Commissioner of Official Languages and—

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

The Privacy Commissioner.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

That's right. Because they operate independently, they would be well placed to speak to us about the independence of a commissioner. Ms. Fraser also offered to testify.

Instead of having an environmentalist debate the merits of an independent office of commissioner of the environment, in my view, it would be more appropriate to hear from those who work directly in the audit field or in a commissioner's office. That would help move this file forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I would just remind committee members that we are discussing this motion, and it isn't broad enough that we're going to reconstruct the position exactly. We're dealing with a motion that is basically a recommendation to government that it look at establishing that independent office for the environment commissioner.

I think we could broaden this out and spend the rest of the year on it, and that is not, I believe, what Mr. McGuinty intends. He wants to keep this issue simple and bring it forward and state that we believe—if that's our decision at the end of this—that we in fact should have an independent environment commissioner from the Auditor General's office. So let's just keep in focus what the motion is before we broaden it out too widely.

Mr. Bigras.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I agree with Mr. Harvey. I think we need to do some sort of comparative analysis of the duties of the Auditor General and those of other commissioners who report to Parliament. Perhaps we can come up with some very good ideas. Why do the Commissioner of Official Languages and the Privacy Commissioner operate independently? Why shouldn't the Commissioner of the Environment operate independently of the Auditor General? I don't know whether the Privacy Commissioner or the Commissioner of Official Languages will be able to provide us with an answer to this question. However, perhaps we can hear from someone who can explain to us clearly the role that commissioners play and their area of responsibility.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

It's a matter of determining how their roles differ.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

That's right. We could look into the reasons why the Commissioner of Official Languages does not report to the Auditor General, whereas the Commissioner of the Environment does. Why is this the case?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

In talking to Justin, it looks like we've got a number of suggestions now. On the international one, I think we might possibly ask Tim if he could do a quick condensation of what exists internationally, which might solve that problem, in that it's unlikely we can get a witness that quickly. We may well be looking at two meetings, if in fact we were to get these witnesses. But I really think we should limit it to that and tentatively agree to have a vote at the end of the second meeting—if we get these witnesses lined up this way. That would give us a focus, and then we can get on to what we plan to be doing here. Otherwise, I can see this expanding and becoming a major thrust, and I'm not sure we want to go in that direction. I think with the CEPA report or review, there are a number of groups waiting for us to get on with that. I think we should do that.

Are there any other comments that are necessary at this point? So if you can get us names, get them to the clerk—to Justin—as soon as possible. We'll try to set this up then for our next meeting.

At this point, we can go in camera to look at the CEPA report for about an hour, to at least get some direction as to where we're going to go and as to how long the CEPA review might take. That's a question I've been asked, and I don't know the answer to that, but it's something we could address as a committee.

So I would suggest that we go in camera at this point.

[Proceedings continue in camera]