Environment Committee on Feb. 8th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Your time is up. We'll come back to you on a second round.

Mr. Lussier.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Madam Auditor General, I'm particularly concerned about staff duplication. To begin with, I would like an overview of the situation. Were any full-time staff assigned to the Office of the Environment Commissioner?

[Sheila Fraser]

At the Office of the Auditor General, we are divided up into groups of auditors. We have about 10 groups which are each comprised of 40 to 50 people, and one of these groups is the commissioner's group. So there are about 45 people who work full-time in the commissioner's group.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Can the environment commissioner borrow staff on a temporary basis from the other nine groups to conduct some of his audits?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, the commissioner can. Obviously, the commissioner's group works with other groups as they conduct their audits and other groups can, in turn, occasionally conduct audits which may be included in the commissioner's report.

The example I'll use is the audit on water quality on reserves. The team responsible for the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada carried out that audit; however it was included in the commissioner's report.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Do you keep a record of this type of collaboration? For example, are you able to say that over the course of last year 200 person-days were spent on environmental issues? Do you compile such data based on attendance lists?

[Sheila Fraser]

Not really. We keep records of the time spent on various products. Obviously, we can't tell you how many audits were carried out where the environment was the sole focus or one of many. We could provide an estimate in response to the question you're asking, but we do our calculations based on the various products.

For example, we keep separate records in relation to the commissioner's statutory duties, i.e. petitions and sustainable development strategy audits, as well as for the activities carried out by the Office of the Commissioner.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I now have a better idea of the employees' structure.

We are also wondering about advisory committees. Are there any advisory committees which specifically deal with environmental issues?

[Sheila Fraser]

There is an advisory committee to the commissioner which appraises the commissioner of any major developments and discusses the focus of potential audits. As with all audits we conduct at the office, there are advisory committees specific to each audit.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Who appoints the Environment Commissioner's Advisory committee members?

[Sheila Fraser]

The commissioner does, in consultation with the Auditor General.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I would now like to discuss paragraph 5 of your presentation.

You state that the commissioner's role should “include policy evaluation, advocacy of sustainable development”, etc.

My question is in relation to a term you used in your presentation, policy advocacy. Is advocating sustainable development policy advocacy?

[Sheila Fraser]

I would point out, Mr. Chair, that paragraph 5 refers to the committee's 1994 report.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I see.

[Sheila Fraser]

It refers to what the committee recommended.

I think you would have to clarify exactly how it's done. If you say that sustainable development is an important issue in Canada and that it must be implemented, well then I think that is acceptable. If you go so far as to say that the government must adopt such and such a policy or go down a particular path, then it is inappropriate for us to do that.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Can you tell me in French what you said in English when you said that there was a very fine line when it comes to commenting on government policies. What is your role?

[Sheila Fraser]

Our work involves accepting from the outset the policies the government has developed, policies which have been adopted by Parliament. We must not comment on these policies. We can audit the implementation, ensure that the policies comply with the legislation in place, but we cannot say, for example, that particular legislation is required or that a statute should be amended. We can sometimes raise other concerns, but it would be inappropriate for an auditor to get involved in policy development because the auditor will be forsaking his or her independence and objectivity, and as a result, the credibility of his or her reports.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I would like to ask you another trick question.

Is advocating Quebec's policy to lessen Quebecker's reliance on oil policy advocacy in your opinion? Quebec has a very clear policy stating it will reduce its reliance on oil by introducing new energy sources with a strategic view to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. In our opinion, there is a very direct connection between greenhouse gases, oil and the oil sands.

If a commissioner were to get involved in this issue and state that reducing reliance on oil is a very noble goal, is the commissioner engaging in policy advocacy?

[Sheila Fraser]

I think that it would be inappropriate for a commissioner to comment on a policy which is first and foremost a Quebec policy and not a federal one. If there were a federal policy or a statute stating that we must curtail our reliance on oil, it would be appropriate for us to request information on any strategies adopted, the plan, and the measurement of its implementation.

What we are able to audit is the implementation of this policy and the effectiveness or efficiency of the way it is being managed. It would, however, be inappropriate for us to say that such a policy must be adopted. It is up to parliamentarians to do that.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

So, if a commissioner were to say that he or she encouraged a reduction in Quebeckers' reliance on oil, that would be meddling in an area which is off limits.

[Sheila Fraser]

You'd have to look at the specific circumstances, but I think that would be walking a very fine line.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I still have two minutes left. Would you like to use them, Paul?

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, Ms. Fraser. I am really glad to see you here today.

In your presentation, you said:

Auditors from around the world have requested our advice and many of them have taken courses on environmental auditing that we developed here in Canada.

Given your skills in other areas, I am hardly surprised.

Do you know the lay of the land in other organizations? Is there a comparative table outlining the approach of other G7 or OECD countries, countries that may be compared with Canada?

[Sheila Fraser]

The Office of the Auditor General is a member of an organization which comprises the offices of United Nations member countries' auditor generals. We have chaired an environmental audit task force for the past six years. Over 50 countries are represented on this task force. The vast majority of them really have very little experience in environmental auditing, despite being fully aware of how important it is and wanting to do more.

There are a few countries which—

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Could you give us some details on four or five countries that carry out environmental audits?