Evidence of meeting #2 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was environment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Order.
I would like to welcome our guests, Mr. Thompson and associates.
As you know, our first hour will be spent questioning and cross-examining. I've talked to Mr. Thompson, and he tells us that he will probably take about the first five minutes. Then we'll open it to questions.
The second hour, as members know, will deal with future business. We will end the meeting at 5:30.
Mr. Thompson, welcome.
3:35 p.m.
Ron Thompson Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
We are simply delighted to be here to discuss our 2007 annual report. It was tabled in the House of Commons on October 30.
I am accompanied by our two principals, Andrew Ferguson and Richard Arseneault.
This report covers two issues fundamental to the mandate Parliament gave the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development 12 years ago. One issue was sustainable development strategies; the other was, of course, environmental petitions.
First, I'll talk about sustainable development strategies. Sustainable development strategies deal with issues that concern all Canadians - protection of the environment, economic prosperity, and social issues such as health. These issues are not mutually exclusive. For example, it is increasingly understood that Canada's economic health depends on its environmental health.
Sustainable development strategies were introduced by Parliament a decade ago to encourage government departments to green their policies and programs. They were to do this by integrating protection of the environment with economic and social issues when developing policy proposals for the future and when managing programs and activities of the day.
We've been monitoring sustainable development strategies for more than a decade. Unfortunately, the ambition and momentum that existed in the early stages of sustainable development strategies have faded. Frankly, the strategies today are a major disappointment. We found little evidence in our audit this year that the strategies have improved or that they have encouraged departments to integrate protection of the environment with economic and social issues in a substantive or meaningful way.
This year I call on the government to carry out a thorough review of what needs to be fixed. The review should result in a concrete action plan to ensure that the government delivers results that will meet Parliament’s expectations.
I am very pleased that the government has agreed with our recommendation to carry out such a review and has made a commitment to complete it by October of next year. I would hope that this committee, Mr. Chairman, would take an active interest in this review by the government. Environment Canada will lead the review; frankly, I believe a separate hearing with them to discuss objectives, approach, and work plan could be quite helpful indeed.
When we look at it, there will never be a better time to carry out this review. Canadians are highly interested in environmental issues, and there is time for government to adjust its approach before the next round of strategies is tabled in 2009.
The other chapter in my report on environmental petitions is more positive. Petitions are letters sent by Canadians to the Auditor General as a way to present their environmental concerns and questions to specific ministers of the federal government. Ministers are required to respond in writing within 120 days. The Commissioner administers the process on behalf of the Auditor General.
Our retrospective study of petitions shows that petitioners value the process, which provides a forum for voicing their concerns and assures them of a formal response. We found that petitioners and departmental officials believe that petitions have had an impact on the government's management of environmental and sustainable development issues.
We also identified opportunities to improve the process, including making Canadians more aware of it. Environmental petitions are a unique feature of our parliamentary democracy. They contribute to public engagement, transparency, and government accountability in environmental matters that concern Canadians.
As I believe the committee knows, we will soon be providing another report to Parliament. Our February status report will include 14 chapters that focus on whether the government has made satisfactory progress on issues that we have audited in the past, issues such as toxic substances, species at risk, contaminated sites, and strategic environmental assessments.
Many parliamentarians find it useful when we provide them with a status report because it clearly points to areas where there has been insufficient progress since our original audits. This information would be a good starting point for discussion with departments in a hearing before a committee such as this.
That concludes my opening statement, Mr. Chairman. We would be very pleased now to respond to questions from members.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Thank you very much, Mr. Thompson and Mr. Arseneault.
Mr. Ferguson, welcome as well.
I would propose, or it's been suggested to me, that we go to five minutes because of the one hour.
Mr. Cullen, I believe you have a concern about that.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Just because we have only one hour, and it would give the maximum number of members the opportunity.
But that's just a suggestion. I need full consensus for that to happen. It's your decision.
No?
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
November 20th, 2007 / 3:40 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Welcome, Mr. Thompson, and welcome, associates.
Can you summarize the key failings of the fourth round of sustainable development strategies? For example, I understand that the committee of deputy ministers responsible for the strategies has never met, and that the issue of sustainable development strategies has never appeared on a cabinet agenda.
3:40 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mr. Chairman, certainly that committee he referred to hasn't met recently. We can find little evidence, actually, that there's been very much of substance going on at the centre to drive these strategies as part of an overarching government process to put in place sustainable development.
Let me give an example of what we find isn't there. When we look at the process within which these strategies fit, there is no overarching framework for the government as a whole that would identify the goals for sustainable development that the government is pursuing and how the individual departments that prepare individual sustainable development strategies are to contribute to those goals.
In our judgment, not having that overarching strategy for the government as a whole makes it very difficult for departments to do meaningful work at the departmental level because, really, to some extent at least, they're flying blind.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Thank you.
Based on what you've said and what's in the report, would I be correct in saying that this government has allowed a fourth set of strategies to be produced that are not connected; that contain no objective overall targets; that contain no set standard of indicators, no rigorous reporting schedule, no validation verification--in other words, in essence no accountability on the environment whatsoever?
3:40 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
For the most part, I would agree with you, but on the last couple of points, not necessarily. There is validation of commitments made on a department-by-department basis. We do that as part of our mandate, and we report 11 of those in this particular chapter.
But in terms of having an overarching strategy, no. In terms of having overarching goals that are driven down into departments, we can't see any.
So for the most part, Mr. Godfrey, I agree with you.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Thank you.
Would you say that other countries have switched to producing one overarching sustainable development strategy that is superior to this ineffectual basket of strategies? And is it true to say that you, yourself, have in some fora called for a federal sustainable development strategy?
3:40 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mr. Godfrey, Mr. Chairman, I haven't really looked at other countries in any detail on this. We're hoping that this will be done by the government as it conducts the review that they have committed to undertaking.
In terms of overarching goals, this year the Department of the Environment asked departments that were going to prepare these sustainable development strategies to tell Environment Canada what they were doing and what programs they had, I think under about six different topics. So that information will have been assembled as part of the process of developing this fourth round of strategies.
That's a far cry from having goals set at the centre. It may be a start toward developing goals for the government as a whole, but I would suggest to you it's a modest start.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
I guess one thing that strikes one as curious about your one recommendation is that, in a sense, you've almost invited a conflict of interest by putting in charge of the review the same department--let us say the Department of the Environment--that was responsible for the set of failed strategies in the first place.
Wouldn't that be a role better ascribed to somebody else, such as Parliament or this committee, than the department itself, which failed to undertake the work in the first place?
3:40 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mr. Chairman, that's a very good question.
We debated long and hard on how to craft this recommendation, Mr. Godfrey. We felt very strongly that we needed one recommendation--that it was time to pause and reflect before going forward for a fifth round. This begged the question, to whom should the recommendation be addressed?
When we thought about it--we consulted on this with Privy Council Office, with Environment Canada, and with about eight current deputies and four former ones--at the end of the day we came to the view that the sustainable development strategy process, and sustainable development itself, is a government-wide process. It's an initiative of the government, not of any one particular government department. So we wanted to address the recommendation to the government even though we generally don't like doing that because it's fairly imprecise.
Then we consulted with the Privy Council Office as to who should respond on behalf of the government. Privy Council Office, after consultation with Environment Canada and ourselves, said they thought Environment Canada should be carrying out this review for now on behalf of the government. So obviously we've accepted that from the government of the day.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Do you think it would be helpful to this process if there were actually an act to require the development and implementation of a national sustainable development strategy, and if this act required the reporting of progress against a standard set of environmental indicators? It perhaps might also involve, as this committee has suggested, the appointment of an independent Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development accountable to Parliament. The act would also require the adoption of specific goals with respect to sustainable development in Canada.
Do you think that would help alleviate the problem that you have been identifying over the years?
3:45 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Godfrey, we've been calling for an overarching sustainable development strategy for the Government of Canada for some time. The government itself committed to putting one in place, I think by the middle of 2006, and it isn't here yet of course.
We still believe that is something that is needed to make this process work. Whether legislation is needed to bring it into play, I don't know, that's up to the government to decide. But clearly there's a need to have an overarching strategy that individual initiatives toward sustainable development can contribute to.
Do I think there's a need to have an independent commissioner? I think you've already got one. I can't imagine any commissioner having more clout than this one, situated where we are. I think we have plenty of clout and plenty of independence to do our job on your behalf.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
The issue is whether your office continues in the same fashion or not. There's a green ribbon panel that is considering the issue on behalf of the Auditor General, and hasn't reported back officially, I guess.
Do you think that whoever in the future occupies the office you're in would have his or her hand strengthened by the existence of the kind of act I have described--which is contained in a nice little private member's bill, called BillC-474, that I have put forward, just by coincidence? I'm just here to help, Mr. Commissioner, you understand.
Do you think legislation with that sort of precision, indicators, and goals would strengthen your hand?
3:45 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Are you asking for me to comment on the private member's bill, sir?
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Well, on something like it, with those objectives and goals in mind. If you want to talk about my private member's bill, I'd be thrilled.
3:45 p.m.
An hon. member
But mind you endorse it.
3:45 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I will go as far as to say that I think there is a need--we all think there's a need--to have an overarching strategy. There's a need to have sufficient guidance given to the government as a whole and individual departments to make that strategy work. In particular, there's a need to take goals, measurable goals, that would be established at the government-wide level, and drive them down into departments and fix a way for those departments, each as to their own mandate, to contribute to those goals in a measurable way, thereby bringing to life this whole notion of sustainable development within the government.
From what we can see, in terms of how these SDSs, or sustainable development strategies, are working, it hasn't come to life yet.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Without putting words in your mouth, it may not be an unhelpful strategy to put forward such a bill.
3:45 p.m.
Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Well, Mr. Chairman, if I may suggest, it would depend on what was in the bill. There are certainly things one would want to consider.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Thank you, Mr. Godfrey. In Rotary, we would actually fine you for advertising, but this isn't Rotary, so we'll carry on and go to Mr. Bigras.
Go ahead, Mr. Bigras.
