Evidence of meeting #29 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was statistics.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Normand Radford
James Mitchell  Founding Partner, Sussex Circle Inc.
Karen Wilson  Assistant Chief Statistician, National Accounts and Analytical Studies Field, Statistics Canada
Robert Smith  Director, Environment Accounts and Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
James Meadowcroft  Research Chair in Governance for Sustainable Development, Carleton University, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Order, please.

Just to let members know, on Monday, May 5, we're planning to have the environment minister from New Brunswick. I understand that New Brunswick is having some problems at this point, so we may have to have him via teleconference. There could be some problems because of the flooding that's going on there. So we have been notified about that.

Also, I have had the request from Mr. Regan that we should have a steering committee meeting. I think that's a good idea. Where that would fit really well is on Wednesday, May 7, because the Auditor General and the new Commissioner of the Environment can stay 90 minutes, which is an hour and a half. So my suggestion is that the steering committee meeting be the last half an hour. If we need longer, we can certainly arrange that.

So we would have our witnesses for Monday, we would have.... Did I do that wrong again?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

I have to add a second “e” in here. That's what I need to do.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

You have to do that, yes. You need to do that. Change your name.

Anyway, the steering committee could be Wednesday, and we could then look at the schedule through to the third week in June. Does that meet with everybody's approval?

Mr. Bigras, does that work for you?

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

I have no objection to our meeting on Wednesday, but I would like you also to consider—and we will be talking about this at the Steering Committee meeting—the fact that Bill C-469 is still on our list of things to do. I simply want to remind you of that.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Yes, we did consider that when I mentioned the suggested plan at the last meeting. That certainly is up front there, and we can probably deal with that fairly quickly.

Anyway, we'll have a steering committee meeting, then, next Wednesday. We'll send out a notice.

Mr. Bigras, I know you have a notice of motion, which we would also deal with on Monday.

We'll go to Mr. Warawa.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you.

The first point of concern I have is that we receive these in a timely fashion. This has come up before. It would be really helpful if we had these handouts before we actually hear from the witnesses so we can read them and be prepared. I think Mr. Meadowcroft, from Carleton, would like us to read before we hear from him. So if it's possible, we should do it for future witnesses. It's too late for today.

We have one more group of witnesses, which is next week. Have we determined who those witnesses are going to be? That's my first question. If we have, could we please put out a request to have the handouts ready?

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

I should defend the clerk at this point.

When witnesses are invited, we always say that if they have written material, we need it to be in the clerk's hands as soon as possible so we can deliver it to the members and they can read it ahead of time. I can only say that in 15 years here, that request has probably been made four or five times every single year.

Again, we try, and I know the clerk tries, to live with that, and for various reasons, many times it doesn't happen. I know that Norm will make that request each time and try to do that.

The big thing, too, is to get it translated. It can't be handed out until it's translated. Many times we get it in only one official language, so there's time lost getting it translated and so on.

But that's a reasonable request. I know that many years I would have loved to have the stuff two or three days ahead of time. We'll make that request, but I won't promise that we'll always have the material.

Did you also know—maybe you weren't here yet—with respect to Monday, that we are a little bit concerned about Minister Haché from New Brunswick? Because of the flooding of the river, the legislative assembly hall there is now under water. There's quite serious flooding going on there. So there is a slight problem. We may have one witness live and one, hopefully, by at least phone or whatever.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

So it isn't just MPs who are all wet. Is that what you're saying?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

That's correct. There are both MLAs, or whatever they're called in New Brunswick, MNAs, and MPs who are quite often all wet.

The other witness is from Sweden, to talk about sustainable development.

I should note, too, that in talking to the Chinese a little bit further, they're very interested in knowing how an environment committee operates, how an environment commissioner operates, and what we can teach them in terms of how you set up a committee like this. I'm not sure that we want to show them a video clip of how our committee operates; that could be a little dangerous, and we may well create the wrong impression.

3:35 p.m.

An hon. member

Just don't show them question period.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Anyway, we will have a steering committee next Wednesday at the end of the Auditor General's report and the commissioner's appearance. That would be the last half hour of that meeting next Wednesday.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

There is one further item, then. We're meeting on Wednesday. The evening of May 8 is still the deadline for—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

The late afternoon of May 8 is the deadline for any amendments you want to make to Bill C-474. Does everybody have that date as well?

We'll send out a notice about this.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

If the deadline is May 8, we then will receive them on May 9, so that we'd have the weekend to work with them. Is that correct?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Can we promise that?

3:35 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Normand Radford

I can't. It depends, Mr. Chair, on the number of amendments we receive.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

So again, the answer would be the number of amendments and the detail of those amendments, and of course they have to be in both official languages. The package has to be put together so that we can proceed with clause-by-clause. Certainly the attempt will be made to get them in your hands as far in advance of 3:30 on Monday as possible.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Well, Chair, we're meeting on May 7, after the committee, to come up with the subsequent schedule of what we're going to do. Then the next day, the 8th, which is a Thursday, would be the deadline.

I would welcome maybe speeding up when they have to be in by, because I think it's really important. If we're going to be starting clause-by-clause and we want this to proceed in an efficient way, we have to have the amendments available for the weekend for us to have a chance to review them.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

How about having the amendments ready by the 7th? We chose the 8th simply because that would give everybody a little bit longer, but with the 7th, Norm, we could get them out by Friday and then have them for the weekend.

Do I have any discussion on the deadline being the 7th, moving it up one day?

3:35 p.m.

An hon. member

Sold.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Okay. So now, not on the 8th but on the 7th, we'll have all the amendments in.

We'll send out a notice of these items, just so everybody knows.

To our guests, again, welcome. We're certainly pleased that you could join us and help us prepare for our clause-by-clause next week and the amendments that members are interested in making. So we are talking about the structure.

As listed here, we'll start with Mr. James Mitchell, please. If you take about 10 minutes or less, that will leave lots of time for our members.

3:40 p.m.

James Mitchell Founding Partner, Sussex Circle Inc.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for inviting me here. As I indicated to the clerk, I do not have an opening statement, which is why your members do not have in hand an opening statement in both languages.

I could say just a little bit about myself and why I suspect I may have been invited here. And I'm very pleased to be here.

I am the head of a small consulting firm in Ottawa that does policy and organizational work for the Government of Canada. It has existed for 14 years. Before that, I was a senior official in the Privy Council Office, concerned with matters of government organization.

So my work both inside and outside government is largely focused on the workings of the federal government, and it was in that capacity that I served recently as a member of the green ribbon panel that was appointed by the Auditor General to look at the mandate given to the AG on matters of environment and sustainable development.

I served very happily as a member of that three-person panel. We made a report in December, which is a public document, which I think the committee is aware of, and recently, as you obviously know, the Auditor General appointed a new commissioner.

So I'm here, obviously, at the committee's disposal, not as an expert on environmental matters, although I've certainly learned a fair bit about them in doing my work as a member of the green ribbon panel, but more, I suspect, as someone who has lots of experience in the working of the federal government.

That's all I'd like to say.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Great. Thank you.

We'll move now to Mrs. Karen Wilson.

3:40 p.m.

Karen Wilson Assistant Chief Statistician, National Accounts and Analytical Studies Field, Statistics Canada

Thank you for inviting us here today. I am from Statistics Canada, as is my colleague Robert Smith. We would like to make a brief presentation about our environmental statistics program. Then we'll be happy to answer any questions. If that's all right, I will turn it over to my colleague Robert Smith, who is the director of our environment statistics program.

April 30th, 2008 / 3:40 p.m.

Robert Smith Director, Environment Accounts and Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. We thought it would be useful to inform the committee about Statistics Canada's current work on environmental statistics accounts and indicators and also to give the committee some sense of Statistics Canada's role in the world of data collection.

Statistics Canada's role in the world of data provision is simply to provide credible, neutral information at arm's length from government in support of defined policy priorities. We're committed to three central things: transparency in everything that we do; adherence to established and publicly known quality standards; and freedom from any sort of interference, real or perceived, from any particular stakeholder group.

With this in mind, let me tell you a little bit about our environmental statistics program. We've been working on environmental statistics since the 1970s, which is probably something that many people don't know. So it's not a completely new program, but it is new in the sense that it has expanded a lot in the last 10 years or so.

The program today contains four broad elements connected to what we do on environment statistics: (1) a growing set of environmental surveys; (2) a set of environmental accounts, where we take data from a variety of different sources, some from our surveys but also some from other departments, and organize them in a fashion that makes them coherent with economic and other statistics; (3) some environment and sustainable development indicators that we compile jointly with Environment Canada and Health Canada; and (4), a number of analytical products that we produce regularly.

We think of ourselves as having a broad mandate to cover essentially all linkages between human activity and the environment. But we try to focus on the immediate linkages between human activities and the environment. We generally steer clear of measures that would be considered purely environmental, such as concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. We don't get engaged in compiling that kind of information. Occasionally, however, we report that kind of information in some of our analytical products.

We have with us a list of our expanding set of environmental surveys. Roughly half of the surveys in the list are what I would call well established surveys, ones that we've been running for a number of years now. The other half are more or less new surveys that we started in the last couple of years. I'll flag the new ones for you: the household survey, where we ask households about their environmental behaviours; some new surveys on energy use; a new survey on water use; a new survey on water quality; a new survey, still in the design stage, on industrial pollution emissions. The last three—solid waste management, environment-related expenditures, and environmental technologies—are all surveys we've been doing for about the last 10 years. They are quite established and robust at this point.

I like to describe our environmental accounting program as being about three Cs: consistency, comprehensiveness, and coherence. When we build environmental accounts, we're trying to create structured environmental databases that are consistent over time—that is, they present variables that are measured the same way year after year. This is important for time series analysis. We try to present accounts that are comprehensive. For example, if we measure greenhouse gases in our account, we try to account for all the sources of greenhouse gases, not just some.

Coherence is important as well. We try to make our environmental accounts internally coherent so that different elements of the accounts speak to other parts of the accounts. But perhaps more importantly, we try to make our environmental accounts coherent with the economic accounts that are really central to Statistics Canada's work, and we think that's quite important. Linking the environment and economy through a set of statistics can lead to quite powerful analytical possibilities.

In terms of the kinds information we can get out of this set of environmental accounts, there are really three main areas. One is stocks of natural capital; so we measure timber and water and land and minerals and oil and gas, and so on, in both physical and monetary terms. Second is the use of natural capital as a source of raw materials and a sink for the wastes produced by economic activity. And third, the accounts provide estimates of expenditures undertaken by businesses and governments and households to protect natural capital.

The third broad element of the program is a set—a small set, I would say—of environmental sustainability indicators. These are produced jointly, as I said, with Environment Canada and Health Canada. They've been published since 2005, and three indicators are published. One is a more or less standard indicator of greenhouse gas emissions. The second is a less standard, slightly more interesting indicator of air quality, namely, a population-weighted average of ground-level ozone and fine particulate matter concentrations. And the third is not in fact one indicator but more than 300 indicators, one to measure water quality at each of the various sites across the country where water quality is measured by the federal and provincial governments.

And finally, we have two analytical reports that we prepare on a regular basis. The first is a report that we've been doing for many, many years; in fact, it dates right back to the 1970s. It's called Human Activity and the Environment, an annual compendium of general reference data on the environment. Each year we also do an in-depth statistical portrait of a particular environmental issue in the compendium. So if you were to look at the recently released 2008 edition of this publication, you would see that its thematic article covered climate change. And we've done a variety of other issues; we've covered transportation and the environment, water, energy and the environment, and a number of others.

The second analytical report is a new one for us. It's one that we've only started publishing recently, and it is actually a quarterly bulletin of environmental statistics focused really on analytical output, with short analytical studies on environmental issues. For example, we did a little study recently on greenhouse gas emissions; but rather than looking at emissions from the standard perspective of who's producing them, we looked at emissions from the perspective of what demand for products is actually leading to the emissions of greenhouse gases. So that turned the traditional greenhouse gas emissions story a little bit on its head.

Like all programs, the program has strengths and weaknesses. I like to think there are more strengths than weaknesses—but some days, I'm not so sure. If you look at the strengths, I think the program is well founded conceptually. What I mean by that is that in some sense we know what we'd like to be measuring in terms of the environment and the economy, and what we'd like to be measuring is quite consistent with international best practices in environmental statistics. Also, we have in place the basic building blocks of that environmental information system. We have a good and expanding set of surveys; we have a set of environmental accounts; and we have some environmental indicators.

But the gaps in the program are not insubstantial, and I've listed some of them here. And I would emphasize that this isn't really a comprehensive list, but includes some of the more important gaps.

We don't know as much about water quantity and water quality as we should.

We don't know very much about fish, and when I say “we”, I'm talking about Statistics Canada. I'm not necessarily labelling the Government of Canada as being ignorant about fish in general; certainly DFO knows quite a lot about fish, but I'm talking about what we've done in terms of our environmental statistics and accounts.

Air pollution is not nearly as well covered in the system as it should be. Neither is water pollution. Land areas, other than agricultural and urban land, are not well covered. And ecosystems are, I would say, practically not covered at all.

So those are some of the gaps that exist.

Finally, I'll simply leave you with a thought about how Statistics Canada could fit in, in a broader role, with respect to sustainable development information. I'll simply say that StatsCan is prepared to provide whatever data the government may require for reporting on sustainable development, and of course we do so in keeping with our principles as an arm's-length supplier of statistics and information.

I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair. Thank you for your time.