Evidence of meeting #37 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was phosphorus.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, Mr. Carignan, I just want to reassure you regarding the bill. The minor correction you mentioned will probably be made to the French. In terms of a limit, we, too, have come to the conclusion, based on discussions we have had thus far, that it is important to set a limit of about 0.5 per cent…
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
It is not just important, it is essential, if you want your bill to work, because trace amounts of phosphorus are found…
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Let me finish. So, there is the limit I just talked about, as well as the health care institutions, but I will come back to you a little later.
Ms. Jelley, thank you for being here today. I would like you to tell me how many multinationals in this world manufacture laundry or dishwashing detergents. How many major market players are there at the present time?
Director, Policy, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
I wouldn't be able to answer that question. International...?
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
As I was surfing on the Web site, I got the impression there are only about four. I do not want to have to name them, but I am thinking of Procter & Gamble, Cascades and a couple of others. There are not many multinationals in the market that are offering that type of product to consumers. As I was surfing the websites of each of these multinationals, I realized that they sell detergents and other laundry products in countries where a limit or ban is in place. I am thinking, in particular, of France, where Proctor & Gamble sells its products.
Earlier, I was reading the text of the following order-in-council dealing with these products, as published in the Official Journal of the French Republic dated March 31, 2007:
Section I - The marketing of laundry detergents containing phosphates for household use is prohibited as of July 1, 2007.
My question is a simple one. If you were able to start selling this type of product in 2007—I assume you were not violating the law in France—why could you not sell phosphate-free products here, in Canada and Quebec? How is it that you can sell those products in France, but it's complicated to sell them here, with the result that we have to wait until 2010?
Director, Policy, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
Thank you for the question.
There may be some confusion. Several European countries have a complete ban on phosphorous in laundry detergent, I will agree with that. We don't in Canada. There's very little, if any, phosphorous in household laundry detergent. But the difference is for automatic dishwasher detergent. In France, for instance, no limitation has been set yet. Discussions are currently going on, but there's no limitation. In Europe only three countries have limits on the phosphorous content in automatic dishwasher detergent. Italy is at 6%, Norway is at 3.8%, and Switzerland is 2.5 grams per washload, which is equivalent to approximately 3%.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Mr. Carignan was saying that the State of Washington has enacted regulations. Does that mean that your large multinationals are not complying with those regulations? I am trying to understand.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Would you like me to answer?
Director, Policy, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
They're just not selling products in those three counties. The regulation came into effect in those three counties in Washington State on January 1, 2008, and our member companies are not selling products in those counties currently.
Bloc
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Pardon me?
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Indeed. Please do not cite Europe as an example to be followed. Europe is behind the United States and Canada when it comes to regulating phosphate concentrations in household products. Europe has replaced phosphates in laundry detergents and some other dishwashing detergents with products that are almost as dangerous as phosphate. So, please, do not rely on European regulations. In fact, they will be changing in the next few years, because people are now realizing their impact.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
I see.
And, in terms of replacements, are clay- or zeolite-based products a possibility?
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
There are replacement products. NTA, or nitrilotriacetates, and EDTA have replaced phosphorus in a number of different European products. We do not necessarily want to follow their lead. As I say, there are currently dishwashing detergents available on the market that do not contain phosphates and do a very good job of cleaning dishes.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
That is exactly what I was saying. You must have read the same journal that I did.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Perhaps. They are not scientific observations but, based on what consumers are saying generally, they work just as well without harming the environment. Those products already exist. The problem in Europe is that they replaced phosphorus in laundry detergents with products that people feel are questionable, because of their potential to harm the environment. What we see emerging now in Quebec, elsewhere in Canada and in the United States are products that are not manufactured by the large multinationals, and that rely on formulas that are environmentally friendly and very effective.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Excellent.
Mr. Carignan, I referred earlier to figures from the Government of Quebec regarding the number of lakes and waterways affected by algal blooms in Quebec between 2004 and 2007. The figures I am giving you may be debatable. There were 43 lakes affected in 2004; 49 in 2005; 107 in 2006; and, 259 in 2007.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
That is an increase that exists only in your own mind. It is not a real increase. It is simply due to the fact that people are doing more monitoring now and reporting small algal blooms. I would remind you that algal blooms in Canada and the United States are not a public health issue. Do you know how many people have died as a result of cyanobacteria in the last 50 years in the United States and Canada? Can you give me a number?
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Yes, one person—a young boy who thrashed about in a golf pond infested with cyanobacteria, about 20 years ago. So, there has been one person. This is not a public health issue; it is an environmental protection issue, just as acid rain is. So, we should not be scaring people talking about the dangers associated with cyanobacteria. Yes, it can make people sick, and it can even kill people—there have been cases across the world—but there are other public health issues that are far more serious. The problem is really one of environmental degradation.
The increase in the number of lakes affected by cyanobacteria is only a reflection of media coverage, because the media have greatly contributed to increased publicity around this problem. People have started to monitor the waterways and are seeing cyanobacteria. I can tell you that in Quebec, there are actually far more than 200 lakes affected by cyanobacteria. In fact, I can predict right now that some 300 will be reported this year.
Bloc
Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
My question will follows up on my colleague's comments.
In the bill, it talks about 2009 for implementing the rules that are proposed, because it was our view that municipalities, businesses and a variety of organizations are all engaged in a great deal of public education regarding the presence of phosphates in detergents.
Mr. Carignan, do you believe it is important to take action quickly in this area, considering that products are currently available on the market?
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
There is no emergency. We have been putting phosphates in our dishwashing detergents for two generations now. If we need to take another year and a half or two to resolve the problem, I think that will be just fine. We should not necessarily be moving too quickly. Let us give the multinationals time to adjust, if they are not overtaken by other companies who are already starting to market phosphate-free products. In my opinion, there is no urgency.
I also want to point out that the Government of Canada is dead last in this area, because a number of Canadian provinces have already passed legislation, as have several U.S. states, and their numbers are increasing on a monthly basis. I find it odd and rather amusing that this is the last piece of legislation you are debating at the federal level. It certainly does not say much for our position on environmental protection.
