Evidence of meeting #37 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was phosphorus.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Thank you, Mr. André.
We'll go on to Mr. Mulcair. You have 10 minutes.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Good afternoon, Ms. Jelley, Mr. Vecco, Mr. Marois et Mr. Carignan.
I would like to begin with you, Mr. Carignan.
I would like to address another aspect of the problem. I believe we have covered the issue as regards dishwashing products. In that respect, I want to start by thanking you, Mr. Carignan, for the very complete answers you have provided. They will greatly contribute to our work here in committee.
A number of bills are currently under consideration. One of our colleagues referred earlier to the one sponsored by Mr. Scarpaleggia, the member for Montreal—West. We are also studying the proposals made by Mr. Bigras. On our side, we have proposed measures aimed at compensating farmers and acting on some of the factors which contribute to the production of blue-green algae. We are proposing a 10-meter buffer strip. Compensation would vary based on the type of crop that would, in a way, have to be sacrificed. Based on my own observations, farm producers are not against the idea of relinquishing part of their land, but they do not want to suffer economic losses.
Mr. Carignan, am I correctly interpreting your opening comment in saying that, in your view, any attempt to control the blue-green algae problem must include an agricultural component?
4:25 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Well, not for recreational lakes. In lakes that are not affected by agriculture, the problem actually revolves around the fact that septic systems do not block phosphorus. At the present time, there are no septic systems available that are able to block phosphorus. The ones that are used now are designed to prevent bacterial pollution, which they are very effective at doing. However, technological developments will be needed in future. The fact remains that, in recreational lakes, the primary sources of phosphorus are human excrement and dishwashing detergents which still contain phosphorus. That phosphorus can be eliminated. In fact, we can eliminate quite quickly, and at very little cost, a small portion of it—about 10 per cent.
As regards land and lakes affected by agriculture, unsustainable agriculture is clearly the primary cause of phosphorus export. We clearly cannot afford to study this issue for another 100 years: we have to find a solution. The most logical choice would be to establish buffer strips where lumber production and agriculture would be combined. That is a good idea. That problem is far more difficult to resolve than the issue of phosphorus in dishwasher detergents. It has to be tackled. However, that is not something that is addressed in Bill C-469.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I understand, but our job is to try and find the best possible solutions. That being the case, it was important to hear your comments on this. However, before I move on to Mr. Marois, there is one point I would like to have clarified.
I don't want to interpret your comments, because I am only too familiar with your work on Laurentian lakes, but I would just like to know whether you are saying that you are not in favour of creating a buffer strip on recreational lakes.
4:30 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
No, absolutely not. However, I want it to be clear that banning phosphorus in dishwashing detergents will not solve the problem.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
But, were there a buffer strip involving no compensation, there would actually be a form of compensation in the sense that people would not have to bathe in their own excrement.
Is it fair to say that, in recreational lakes, a buffer strip would nevertheless be a good idea?
4:30 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Yes, it is a very good idea, but it alone will not resolve the problem. Over the long term, the design of septic systems located in proximity to recreational lakes will have to change.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Thank you very much.
I would now like to move to Mr. Marois who, I would remind you, is the President of the Conseil régional de l'environnement de la Montérégie. This area, which is primarily agricultural, does in fact comprise a large number of lakes and rivers that are very seriously affected.
Mr. Marois, you probably know that there is a system providing for compensation for agricultural best practices—specifically payment of a maximum amount of $5,000 for creating a buffer strip in agricultural areas. The federal government has just renewed that program for an additional year. I would like to know whether you and your team have considered that possibility. A whole series of solutions is being proposed as a way of starting to control the blue-green algae problem.
4:30 p.m.
President, Conseil régional de l'environnement de la Montérégie
Mr. Mulcair, before I answer your question, I want to go back to what Mr. Vecco and Mr. Carignan said earlier about replacement products. There are three of us here telling you that the issue is not time. I fully agree with Mr. Carignan: in that respect, we have to do things properly, as opposed to acting too quickly. As far as we are concerned, replacement products are an extremely critical issue.
As regards agriculture, the Council held a forum on cyanobacteria. We looked at the issue overall, as opposed to focusing solely on cyanobacteria. I agree with Mr. Carignan that the blue-green algae problem is having a lot of impact because the media have decided to run with it. But, to be perfectly honest, we intend to use it ourselves to raise awareness of the need for environmental protection.
Having said that, at the Forum, we determined that water is a public good. Based on that observation, a resolution was drafted and passed for the specific purpose of encouraging agricultural practices such as the 10-meter buffer strip and all the sustainable technologies related to agriculture. It is clear to us that agriculture is one of the major problems, but at the same time, people need help. As we see it, if water is a public good, then there is a need to support people working in the farming industry. This is the kind of problem that could be resolved by supporting the buffer strip project and new and attractive technologies. That is why I referred to the La Guerre River project and organic growing.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
That's a good example.
Professor Carignan, you talked about silviculture. However, this is not the first time we have heard it said that, for certain new species, harvesting, even on the buffer strip, could be considered.
Are you aware of any studies dealing with that?
4:35 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
There are studies, but you should know that, in the short term, it will never be as advantageous to grow trees as it is to grow corn for the production of ethanol, for example.
I believe you are considerably off topic here. We were talking about phosphorus in automatic dishwasher detergents, and now we have moved on to agriculture and ethanol. I don't know how your committees work, but I certainly would like to see the problem of phosphorus concentrations in automatic dishwasher detergents resolved.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Well, you dealt so effectively and thoroughly with the issue, Professor Carignan, that we wanted to take advantage of your expertise and your presence here today to ask you about buffer strips. A parliamentary committee will be reviewing the other bill as well. We will invite you to appear when that happens.
4:35 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
I would be pleased to do so. Agriculture is an incredibly more complex issue than is phosphorus concentrations in detergents. There are known solutions, but there needs to be the political will to act on them.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Precisely! You are absolutely correct on that as well, Professor Carignan.
4:35 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
It is an old problem for which there are known solutions. We are not talking about applying new technologies; rather, it is a matter of better land use.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Yes, but around recreational lakes, the principle is the same. We are addressing a small part of the problem, but if the purpose of the exercise is…
4:35 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Yes, and that small part of the problem is easy to resolve. On the other hand, if you move away from that and start discussing agriculture and polluted rivers, I can assure you that you will not be done with this by tonight. Other committees will have to address those issues.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
It's like with everything else, Mr. Carignan. You talked about political will. But, there are people sitting at this table who have a different perspective and belong to different political parties. If we are able to agree right from the outset that this issue goes well beyond that of phosphorus concentrations in dishwasher detergents, if we can broaden our horizon, that may put us on the right track. That's why experts like you are so important.
4:35 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Yes, but as regards dishwashing detergents, you have an opportunity to resolve part of the problem easily and at almost no cost.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
You are right.
Mr. Marois, I would like to know whether, in Montérégie, you have had an opportunity to talk about buffer strips with the UPA or one of its member organizations and, if so, how the idea was received.
4:35 p.m.
President, Conseil régional de l'environnement de la Montérégie
It was very positive. I heard what Mr. Carignan said, and I will be perfectly frank. I made this point in all sincerity when I arrived—namely, that I was given very little notice. I had to get myself organized in no time flat.
As far as I am concerned, when we talk about integrated management, we are talking about tackling the problem as a whole. In that regard, my views are not perfectly in sync with those of Mr. Carignan. We cannot avoid part of the problem. But, we cannot solve only one aspect of the problem. At least, that is our perspective on this.
The forum on cyanobacteria that we organized in our area did not only deal with one issue; we talked about all the issues. Because I work on a collaborative basis, I just can't see it any other way. That is why my presentation today reflected that approach.
Having said that, we do work with the UPA. Collaboration is not always easy to accomplish. Of course, people may be for or against certain things, but the President of the UPA in Saint-Hyacinthe and the Vice-President of the UPA in Saint-Jean-de-Valleyfield are members of our board of directors. There has been progress.
Indeed, I would just like to give you an example of some great cooperation. The Missisquoi Bay area has been working to clean up the Missisquoi Bay watershed, where there was a problem with cyanobacteria some ten years ago. When Mr. Carignan says this is not a new issue, he is perfectly correct. What is different is that, nowadays, people take an interest in it, whereas previously, they simply forgot about it. There has been dialogue and collaboration in the community. At the beginning, people were simply pointing fingers. Everyone was to blame. However, through dialogue, we were able to find solutions. In that specific case, the problem was clearly agriculture-related, because agricultural practices were not sustainable. People changed their behaviour, though, and that has clearly yielded very good results.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Mr. Mulcair, your time is up. Thank you.
I will move on to Mr. Warawa.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here, and also to Dr. Carignan for being here.
Ms. Jelley, I would like to ask you some questions about the date of the act coming into force. As you are aware, the government introduced a notice of intent to regulate back in February, and for the benefit of you witnesses, I just want to read what Bill C-469 requires.
It says in proposed subsections 117.1(2) and 117.1(3), respectively, that:
Paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) come into force 180 days after the day on which this Act receives royal assent.
Paragraph (1)(c) comes into force 360 days after the day on which this Act receives royal assent.
So if Bill C-469 were to receive royal assent this fall, what would it mean to the industry if we had this in effect six months after receiving royal assent? What would it mean to consumers to have that product available?
4:40 p.m.
Director, Policy, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
There's a very good chance that CCSPA-paying member companies would not have products to sell by that date. We have committed to the July 2010 deadline, and that is what is happening in the U.S. It was an industry-led initiative in the U.S. Unfortunately, they can't do it federally, so they have to go state by state. All states, with the exception of three counties in Washington State, have the July 2010 deadline.
If Bill C-469 proceeds as is and gets royal assent this fall, there is a very good chance that 80% of the market would be gone until they actually reformulate. So that could mean there would be less product available to consumers, and the products that were available would probably rise in price, because they would have a larger share of the market.