Environment Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Using your list.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

No, you being the sole decider amongst those lists, with the clerk, versus you and three other party representatives, representing the entire gamut of opinion, making a set of recommendations based on submissions that are put to you.

I suspect it will go just fine, but I can tell you it will not go just fine if you don't allow other people to take part in this process. There will be the chance for anybody who is unhappy at the results of that decision to appeal it in committee of the whole. But we will not be satisfied with the idea of simply leaving it to one decider to interpret and to decide, when four people representing all parties will do a better job, with all respect--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

You're not hearing; we're going to get the list of witnesses from all the parties, Mr. Godfrey. Then we're going to send that out. Okay?

And we're going to put together who can come here. You're going to comment and say, I don't think that's balanced, and I think we should add this person. You're deciding that and putting it forward. Then we put that new list out to the committee.

That, it seems to me, shows I'm not deciding anything; I'm using your list to come up with your topics—and that will work, because everybody will have their input.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

With due respect, this committee decided by a democratic majority vote to have a steering committee. We think this is precisely the function of the steering committee. We are asking you to honour the decision made by the committee to have a steering committee help us adjudicate these matters. With all respect, this idea of paper floating in and out, and you being the sole control point, and that somehow that is going to be more efficient than putting four people on the telephone line for two hours to sort it out once and for all, and if there's a problem to have it come back to this committee, is crazy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Chair, I looked at this. We all received this on the recommended procedure for Bill C-377.

As I said, I saw this and we saw that it needed a little tweaking, and we're going to support it. This is the NDP bill, Bill C-377. The Liberals had their bill, Bill-288. They've had their time in the sunshine. It's the NDP's turn; it's their bill, their private member's bill.

I looked at this and I suggested a minor tweaking. If the NDP wants to have the Bali debrief, okay. If they want to have it second, okay. But it's their bill; it's their time. What we're seeing now is a reasonable request, and we're seeing the Liberals trying to hijack it.

Chair, I would like to make a motion, because what we're seeing is a lot of rhetoric coming from across the way. I move that we accept the recommendation made by the NDP with those friendly amendments I proposed.

Let's move on and allow this to proceed.

So moved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I'm sorry, Mr. Warawa, but I was talking to the clerk.

Could you repeat that?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I move that we accept the proposal of the NDP as presented here and use it as the template for the meetings, along with the agreed friendly amendments, including the minor changes to the meetings and the clarifications on what the topics would cover. Also, if they want to change the dates or the order of the meetings, fine; but we should use this as the sample and allow you and the clerk, per tradition, to decide that we will each provide a list of witnesses and that there be a fair balance. That's what I'm moving.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I send that out to everybody for approval.

[An hon. member]

Yes, I second that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Okay, that's open for debate then. We have a motion in front of us.

Mr. Godfrey.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I have an amendment, that once the lists have been sent out, the subcommittee be required to bring themselves together to discuss it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I just wanted to clarify something.

I have to say I find this debate a little unusual, but that's your culture and your committee. I don't want to come in as an outsider and tell you.... We go through very similar sorts of things at the public accounts committee. We just went through the RCMP pension scandal, so you can appreciate some of the dynamics that were at play. We used the steering committee. We would have been totally up the river without a paddle had we not had our steering committees. So I support them as a concept; I know they work. What I don't want to do is have the government members believe that I'm kicking a gift horse in the mouth here.

So what is your problem?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Maybe, I could first clarify how I see this.

We have a list in front of us. We want to approve that list with the changes Mr. Warawa suggested, which I think the NDP have agreed to. Then we will get a list from everybody of the suggested speakers and we will try to see who's available when and come up with dates. We will then send that out to the membership of this committee, who will look at it. We will then get the input back and will call a steering committee meeting to evaluate what has come back. Okay?

All members have had their input. We will then finalize it, send it back out to all the members and then have our meetings.

What's wrong with that game plan? What am I missing about that game plan that isn't democratic, or that I'm controlling? I just don't get it, because people have had three opportunities to have input.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

What you're missing is the fact that four people are smarter than one person—even you. What's needed is to have that initial decision of balance and placement vetted by representatives of all the parties. That's all we're saying.

We're not disputing.... The only thing we're suggesting in terms of the lineup is that we bring Bali up as number—

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

It's been agreed to.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

That's fine. We're okay on that. Done.

All we're saying is that when all the suggestions come in—as we did, by the way, for Bill C-30, and as we've done in other committees—we actually have a steering committee that balances everything off and makes sure that everybody's view is represented. That's all. To think that one person's judgment on what looks like balance is better than the judgment of four people, who collectively represent the four parties, is, with all respect, rather a lot.

Basically, either you're neglecting the evidence that shows the overall effectiveness of steering committees—and I'm not ascribing this second motive to you—or somehow or other, we're trying to end run the decision of the committee to have a steering committee. I'd love to know, if you're not prepared to have a steering committee do what a steering committee traditionally does, under what conditions we would ever have a steering committee, despite the will of the majority of this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

The real truth of the matter is that I'm going to depend a lot on the clerk, and the clerk is going to see who's available for what meetings from the list he has. That's how we've always done it in any committee I've ever been on. I've never seen such a culture, as Mr. Christopherson calls it, of this.... I don't even know what we're arguing about.

This is sort of like what the nuns did at one point in the 17th century in deciding whether angels had wings. For a hundred years they debated it, and at the end they said that some angels do and some angels don't. That's kind of how I feel right now. I don't even know what we're arguing about, because this is about as democratic as you can get.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It's not democratic. We voted to have a steering committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

But you don't get to decide by yourself.

What I want is that you understand that the four parties, in their collective representation at one place and at one time, will have more knowledge about what the actual names are, and they'll be able to sort it out. They will know collectively more than you, as one, and—with all due respect to my friend Norm, who's basically a relative of mine—they will certainly know more than Norm. Right?

All I'm saying is that in a spirit of reasonableness, you get all four people there who have been putting forward the names, and they can say, “Well, actually, I know this guy. You already have that point of view twice.” You may or may not know that. Norm probably won't know that. That's all I'm arguing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Godfrey, basically, in the four parties you're counting me as taking the opinion of the government, not being chairman but being a member of the--

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Furthermore, with respect to all your colleagues, you're the most experienced of the lot. Of course you know more than they do.

I'm sorry, guys, but it's true.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Are there any other comments?

Go ahead, Mr. Harvey.