Evidence of meeting #20 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.
2:10 p.m.
Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
We have technical people who do it. If we are outside of the limits, we would be told, but we only check it for specific things.
To answer your technical question, I do not have the documents with me, so it would be hard to answer.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
You said the water is being tested by the federal government. What are the results of those tests? Is the water is safe or unsafe?
2:10 p.m.
Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
The water right now is to a standard where it's drinkable through the taps.
2:10 p.m.
Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
The Athabasca, Peace, Hay, and Slave rivers all drain into the Mackenzie River. As François said, we do have foams on the river. We also have scum. When we boil our water from the river to make tea, we do have scum on our cups and that. But the river is being monitored, and we still drink from the river.
2:10 p.m.
Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
The municipalities do, the Government of the NWT.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Are they determining with their monitoring that it's safe to drink?
2:10 p.m.
Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
If there is a concern, the communities would be made aware of it.
2:10 p.m.
Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual
In the past three years or so, our drinking water has been trucked in from Fort Smith. Before that...do you see that beautiful river across there called the Dog River? That's where we took our water from. The water came from the Canadian Shield. Right now we don't have wells or clean water pumping systems in our territory, so we truck it in from Fort Smith.
I want to go back to this question. If there are three litres of water to make one litre of oil, if you were to charge these guys money for every litre of water, you could spend $258 billion to give every reserve drinking water, with pipes right to their homes.
Right now, where I live, there is no clean drinking water that we can get. We have to go to Fort Smith.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Chief Paulette, you mentioned a number of other industries and users on the Athabasca River. You talked about the pulp and paper mills. I don't know if you mentioned the former uranium mine and the communities along the Athabasca River. Fort McMurray has grown at a tremendously fast pace.
In your comments, it sounded as if you were saying that there were pollutants left in the sediment of Lake Athabasca. I think you were asked by Mr. Ouellet whether going from open pit to in situ would solve the problem. Your answer was no, that it was too late. I think you then talked about the toxic residue left in the sediment on the base of Athabasca Lake. Do you believe that this has built up over the years? Is the lake is ruined? Has it become so toxic that it's no longer usable?
2:10 p.m.
Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual
The question he was asking was about the river. I'm not familiar with Lake Athabasca. It's about 90 miles from where I am. What I'm very familiar with is the river.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I would like to thank our witnesses for bringing the Northwest Territories and Saskatchewan perspective to our hearings. It was very helpful. Thank you for driving so far to get here.
2:15 p.m.
Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
I looked at the maps of the river system and the Athabasca. If there is further development, we'd like to be contacted and be part of the process. We would even like to visit the community.
2:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Maps are important to us. They help us see things clearly.
It's nice meeting you, Mr. Paulette, former grand chief.
Next, we have the Honourable Michael Miltenberger, Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories.
May 12th, 2009 / 2:15 p.m.
J. Michael Miltenberger Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to appear before the committee. For the record, my name is Michael Miltenberger and I'm the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources. I'm also the Deputy Premier, as well as the Minister of Finance.
I want to talk to you about the Mackenzie River Basin, the Northwest Territories, the issue of water, and the issue of cumulative impact. I want to touch on some of the context for us, some of the threats that we are facing on the issue of water. I want to lay out some of the challenges and steps we're taking through our water strategy, and I want to make some recommendations for this committee to consider, particularly in regard to the federal government.
We're 1.2 million square kilometres, about 12% of Canada. We have 33 communities, and every one of them is on a body of water in the Mackenzie River Basin. We have 42,000 people, and half of them are of aboriginal descent. A common unifying issue in the Northwest Territories is the importance of water and protecting the quantity and quality of water. The Northwest Territories lies almost entirely within the Mackenzie River Basin. We're the largest downstream jurisdiction in the basin. In the Northwest Territories, there are two major deltas—the Slave Delta and the Mackenzie River Basin Delta.
We are very concerned about what's happening in the Mackenzie River Basin. I want to refer to the transboundary agreement that was signed in 1997. The federal government played an initiating role, and it tied the signatories together in a common agreement. Those signatories are Saskatchewan, Alberta, B.C., the Yukon, and the Northwest Territories. We have aboriginal representation. However, it is an underutilized agreement.
We are very interested in working out the issue of transboundary agreements. If I can mangle John Donne just a bit, when it comes to water, no jurisdiction is an island unto itself. We all have common interests. We are concerned because the Northwest Territories government in the fifteenth assembly, the last assembly, passed a unanimous motion declaring water as a fundamental human right. I think we're the only jurisdiction in the country that's done that. While the federal government has the legal mandate over water management in the Northwest Territories on behalf of northerners, the government of the Northwest Territories, along with the aboriginal governments, has been exercising what we see as our political and moral authority and responsibility to deal with issues that affect us deeply and personally—issues that we can't rely solely on the federal government to resolve.
We also recognize the relationship with the aboriginal governments. As you've heard from some of the preceding panellists, the issue of aboriginal treaty rights is sooner or later going to get tested in the courts, when the fundamental rights enshrined in these agreements are challenged. We recognize them and we work with them. I'm going to speak briefly about the issue of traditional knowledge and what we all talk about as natural capital.
One of the threats we see to our water system, in addition to the issues we have within the Northwest Territories, is upstream development. I want to talk about cumulative impact. You've been talking about the oil sands here today. There are pulp mills; there are over a million head of livestock; there are communities; there's a proposed nuclear reactor up on Lac Cardinal on the Peace River side; you have the proposed Bennett Dam; and we have unknown things happening in the headwaters, on both the Alberta and B.C. side, in both the Peace and Athabasca, as the glaciers retreat and the snowpack diminishes because of global warming; and you have a huge lack of knowledge.
We're also very concerned about things from the air that are sifting down upon all our jurisdictions. You heard today about naphthenic acids, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, bitumen, mercury, and the heavy metals. A lot of that is airborne. You can read the literature. It blankets the Arctic.
We also have our own issues in the Northwest Territories. We're trying to get a better handle on how we proceed with development, be that pipelines or mines in general. We have a giant defunct mine on the edge of Great Slave Lake, which has 230,000 metric tonnes of arsenic trioxide stored in the mine shafts below the water level of Great Slave Lake--a billion dollar cleanup we will have to deal with. Another threat is the climate change impact from permafrost. The fire seasons are extending. Snowpack ice is disappearing. There are low water events across the land. In every community, the people will tell you that the land is changing, the water is changing.
Some of the challenges are because there's no national water strategy that allows the federal government to play a clear leadership role on an issue that touches every jurisdiction, without exception. These are challenges that affect every community, every Canadian.
We support the work and the efforts being put forward by the environment ministers and the federal government to get this national water strategy up and going. The last serious work was done in 1987, and not a lot has happened since then. There was a Senate panel that did a review, which was chaired by an Alberta Senator, Tommy Banks. It laid out all the issues: the lack of resources, the cutting of programs, the inability of the federal jurisdiction to do the work that's necessary for both surface water and groundwater.
At the same time, we have what has been, up until this recession, an unbridled rate and state of development, often moving far faster than the assessments were able to keep up. In our jurisdiction, we have a somewhat confused regulatory regime. Once again, the federal government has come in and set up a process that is often very difficult and frustrating for all concerned.
One of the challenges, as well, is the linking of traditional knowledge and the European sciences as we move forward in all the areas in the Northwest Territories where the aboriginal governments are one of the major land owners. No comprehensive research partnerships at all have been established to do a lot of the work that's necessary.
We have a Mackenzie River Basin transboundary agreement that has been quietly sitting, almost in neutral, that has not had any funding increases since 1997. They operate with a $250,000 budget. The ministers have yet to gather around the table. We see this as a mechanism that has tremendous potential if it's revitalized, if the players, led by the federal government, come to the table to talk about how we manage the water on an integrated watershed management approach in the Mackenzie River Basin. That has yet to happen.
You heard today, from all the panellists, about the issues of concern because of the lack of any mechanism to allow people to come to the table. Alberta looks after its interests within Alberta. Unless the federal government uses the legislation it has, there's very little opportunity to trigger the involvement of other jurisdictions. One of the communities in the Northwest Territories, Fort Resolution, tried to attend one of the hearings on the development in Fort McMurray, and it had a very difficult time to get any kind of hearing that was considered to be serious. It pointed out the need for us, as a government, to work with the aboriginal governments to come up with a plan and policy base that's going to allow us to deal with that issue.
I touched very quickly on the lack of research monitoring. It's an issue in the Northwest Territories, but it's an issue in the Mackenzie River Basin, right from the headwaters to the Arctic Ocean. There's the aquatic ecosystem health. Most jurisdictions in this Mackenzie River Basin agreement are silent on groundwater, yet a report released yesterday, referenced by Dr. Griffiths, states very clearly that it's a critical part of the hydrological cycle.
There are huge climate change issues. There are supply issues in jurisdictions. We all have to work together to monitor and manage them. We need to make use of traditional knowledge. People who have inhabited the watershed for thousands of years are telling us that things are changing, and not for the better.
We are working together to develop an NWT water strategy called Northern Voices, Northern Waters. We want to have a strong northern voice. We recognize that if we're going to be effective in a jurisdiction of 42,000 people, we have to work shoulder to shoulder with the aboriginal governments to develop a plan that will allow us to look more clearly at resource development as we negotiate agreements with Alberta, Saskatchewan, B.C., the Yukon, and the federal government.
We have to be clear about what's entailed in negotiating a very complex agreement. It's not just flow and quality. There is a huge number of other issues. It's not just surface water. We want to be prepared to deal with everything. We see a clear link in the issue of natural capital, which has become a topic of some discussion here. We recognize that there is a value to the intact ecosystems. It's not just overburden to be stripped away to get at the oil, diamonds, gold, and other minerals. Aboriginal people have been telling us this for decades through traditional knowledge. We've come to recognize that they are right. It is not only a spiritual, cultural, and social value; you could also put an economic value on it now in a language that everybody understands, including business. We are trying to build that into our approach.
What we are recommending is a revitalizing and strengthening of the transboundary mechanisms through the Mackenzie River Basin Waters Master Transboundary Agreement. They speak of an integrated watershed management approach, which we support. We support the federal government's being involved and providing a leadership role. This is a national issue, not just one for the Northwest Territories or individual jurisdictions. We all have an interest in this.
We have to come up with ways for downstream jurisdictions to be more effectively involved. Consulting 12 kilometres below site C, say, does not constitute adequate consultation for anybody. We need timely and clear notification when there are things that go wrong, as they invariably do. Most of the time, we find out about things in the newspaper or on CBC Radio.
We want to recommend that this committee support and push for a national water strategy in which the federal government can play a leadership role in bringing the jurisdictions together. We believe there is a place in this for traditional knowledge along with western science, as we look at the watersheds across the land and deal with people who have thousands of years of experience that we do not have.
There has to be more money spent on research. We cannot make informed decisions without research. Without research, we are forced to rely on the precautionary principle, which means we go with the best information we have. This invariably leads to problems; however, we need to commit. I was recently at a conference in Canmore with all the specialists and scientists who measure water and snowpack in glaciers. They said that there is a significant dearth and a gap in our systems.
Groundwater, surface water, we are all facing these challenges, not only in the Northwest Territories but throughout the Mackenzie River Basin. As northerners in the Northwest Territories, we see things happening upstream from us, and we are particularly concerned that wise decisions be made in the Mackenzie River Basin.
Thank you.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you. That was a very comprehensive look at water issues from a Northwest Territories perspective.
Mr. Trudeau.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC
Thank you, Deputy Premier.
What sort of response have you been getting from the various levels of government as you've approached them about this comprehensive strategy?
2:30 p.m.
Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
We have had strong support from the aboriginal governments. Within the Northwest Territories, the federal government, through Indian Affairs, has provided us with the support and resources to help move this forward.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC
Have other potential partners such as the Government of Alberta and the Government of Saskatchewan been coming to the table as partners in this discussion?
2:30 p.m.
Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Our relationship with the provinces and the Yukon is built mainly on the Mackenzie River Basin transboundary agreement, under which we have to negotiate these bilaterals. This agreement was signed in 1997, and bilaterals were supposed to be negotiated. After 11 years, though, there's only one that exists, and it's between the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.
We have some significant challenges. People are becoming more and more aware of how complex the issue of watershed management is. It can't be addressed with a simple agreement. It will have to be more complex than the agreements that were negotiated with Saskatchewan and the Yukon. Science and understanding have progressed significantly, and our strongest relationships are with the provinces and territories.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC
To return to the federal government, you mentioned a certain amount of cooperation from the Department of Indian and northern affairs. Is there a sense that the federal government, as a whole, is politically interested in working out these agreements on watershed management?
2:30 p.m.
Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
At the last environment ministers gathering, we did get inclusion of the need to look towards national principles when it comes to dealing with water. I think it's an issue that is gathering significant momentum as people recognize what's happening.
At this point, I wouldn't say it has been fully embraced, but I think at the federal-provincial-territorial table there's a growing sense of urgency that we have to get ahead of this. That's not only within Canada; we have any number of other transboundary agreements, with the United States, for example, where I don't think we got the best deal possible when the Columbia River Basin agreement was signed.