Evidence of meeting #27 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
It's entirely relevant. We're talking about environmental rules and monitoring, Ms. Duncan, just for the record.
Author, As an Individual
Let me remind you, Mr. Watson, that in 1974 and 1973 Alberta Environment recommended that the tailings ponds not expand, that it was unsustainable, and that other processes be found before mining development proceeded at a rapid pace. That never happened. The Energy Resources Conservation Board didn't come up with criteria for tailings pond management until 2009. That's the kind of regulatory neglect that I cite in my book and that I cite repeatedly. The same thing applies to groundwater monitoring for steam plants.
There is a record of persistent neglect on environmental issues in the tar sands, and I have them all documented.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
With respect, for the record, Mr. Chair, according to the World Economic Forum, on environmental regulatory stringency Canada is 20th out of 133 countries. As to other oil-producing nations, Mexico is 74th, Nigeria is 86th, Libya is 88th. With respect to environmental enforcement, again according to the World Economic Forum, Canada is 17th out of 133 relevant countries, with Mexico 77th, Nigeria 94th, and Venezuela 99th. On Yale University's Environment Performance Index, Canada is number 12.
I think, Mr. Chair, there's a strong record with respect to environmental enforcement for the country.
Author, As an Individual
No, there is not.
Mr. Chair, let me reply to that. There is absolutely not.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
I'm going to move on with questions.
Mr. Scarpaleggia, for the third round, five minutes, please.
Sorry, it's four minutes, to give every party a chance.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Mr. Nikiforuk, would you like to finish off on that answer?
Author, As an Individual
I think the record shows that Canada has persistently neglected water. A really radical group like the Conference Board of Canada recently gave Canada a mark of D for waste water generation. It gave a D for greenhouse gases. Out of something like 20 countries, it rated us near the bottom.
There are lots of different ways of examining how neglectful Canada has been. Particularly in the area of water enforcement and water monitoring, we have a poor record.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you, Mr. Nikiforuk.
Dr. O'Connor, you've been accused of raising undue alarm, of course. Correct me if I'm wrong, but because of your statements and your choosing to raise a red flag, Health Canada did an investigation of the cancer rates in Fort Chipewyan. Is that correct?
Liberal
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Following that, no less an organization than the Alberta Cancer Board did a study, more exhaustive than Health Canada's, and recommended a continuous study. It seems to me that they lend credibility to your claims, at least enough credibility to feel that more research is required. That seems to be what you're trying to accomplish. You're not trying to alarm anyone; you're just trying to get somebody to look at the problem.
Is that correct?
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
In terms of the mechanism through which pollutants from the oil sands or from other sources would reach the first nations people of Fort Chipewyan, there are a lot of question marks. To your knowledge, have there been comprehensive tests of the drinking water that comes out of the water filtration plants there? Would these tests have tested for heavy metals and so on, or would they just test for bacteria and viruses that can be killed with chlorine? Have they done exhaustive testing on the drinking water from the filtration plant?
Physician, As an Individual
From what I've been told by these very people, the levels of bacteria are monitored and a standard battery of tests are used in all treatment plants. I don't believe there's been any comprehensive testing or ongoing testing of the types of toxins we're talking about or heavy metals. I could be wrong in that regard but I don't think so.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you.
So the theory would be, then, that either things are getting through the filtered water or the people of Fort Chipewyan are drinking from the rivers, which Dr. David Schindler recommended not be done. They may also be ingesting natural foods or foods from the land that would be contaminated. That would be the transmission mechanism, I guess.
I recall Dr. Schindler saying if there are heavy metals in the sediments from the oil sands, chances are they would get caught way upstream and wouldn't make their way downstream. Have you heard that argument?
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
So we can give everybody a fair chance, we'll now move to Mr. Ouellet.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Mr. Nikiforuk, I would like to return to an issue that we raised previously. I am talking about the amount of water used for producing crude oil in the west. A part of the water evaporates. The evaporation comes from the decantation basins. This produces very large amounts of greenhouse gases, and the amounts will increase more and more as the climate changes.
Do you think that the amount of water that evaporates from these huge basins has been calculated yet? These basins are like lakes. I think that it will be one of the biggest lakes in Canada. Do you think that the evaporating water contributes a substantial amount of greenhouse gas?
Author, As an Individual
The tailings ponds occupy an area of about 120 square kilometres in total. Yes, they are a significant source of volatile organic compounds and other greenhouse gases and methane.
I've talked to a number of people in industry, and this is not a critical source of emissions from the tar sands. There are other, more important sources, but this is one of many. Again, I don't know how well it has been quantified either.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
I have another question for you, Mr. Nikiforuk. Did you say that one single refinery emitted an amount of greenhouse gas equivalent to the greenhouse gases emitted by 340,000 cars? Were you talking about an already-existing refinery, or about a refinery that could be built for processing the crude bitumen from the oil sands?
Author, As an Individual
I think that was a reference to the construction of a refinery in the Great Lakes area to handle bitumen and that the volume of greenhouse gases that would be created as a result of refining the bitumen there would be equivalent to that number of cars.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
If a refinery was modified so that it could refine bitumen, by how much would the greenhouse gas emissions go up?
