Environment Committee on June 11th, 2009

[Dr. John O'Connor]

I'm not a statistician. The initial analysis in 2006 showing that there was no cause for concern was criticized because it chose a method of analysis with confidence intervals that were way too wide. It was suggested that they go on absolute numbers, which I believe was the trend for the Cancer Board when it produced its study.

If I were confident talking about sample sizes and disease occurrence, I would be able to answer the question more fully. My concern is that in the absolute numbers and in comparison with the population south of Fort Chipewyan, we shouldn't really.... They talk about chance and the possibility of things occurring purely as a result of that, but on that widespread basis with those numbers of cancers, against the background of the non-malignant illnesses in the community, I think it's a red flag.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Nikiforuk, we haven't heard an awful lot about acid rain as an issue around the oil sands. Acid rain was fought in the industrial areas of the Golden Horseshoe more or less successfully by withdrawing the SO₂ and the NO₂ emissions.

Are there not the same kinds of standards and issues applied to emissions in and around the oil sands production and extraction?

[Andrew Nikiforuk]

Well, I think that's a really good question. I don't know if I have the answer for it.

All the projections are that SO₂ and nitrogen oxide emissions are increasing dramatically, and we are already beginning to see on the ground the effects of these emissions in that we now have a problem in western Canada that we've never had before, that of acid rain. It's like so much that has to do with the tar sands. It's another consequence of rapid development that hasn't been properly explored, and governments haven't been proactive about the issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

The time has expired.

Thank you, Mr. Trudeau.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to ask both witnesses some questions. I think I'll start with Dr. O'Connor.

When you started out your testimony you talked about the baseline basically being anecdotal or cultural stories that you've heard about how things used to be. You said they didn't have a word for “cancer”. I'm sure they didn't have a word for “epidemiologist” at some point in their language either. And I say that with respect, because there are differences.

I represent a large first nations area in my constituency in Alberta, and I note that there are different health concerns on that reserve than in the neighbouring communities, and that is in large part due to cultural choices and cultural practices.

Do you know what the smoking rate is in Fort Chipewyan?

[Dr. John O'Connor]

No, I don't.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Anecdotally, could you enlighten this committee as to what percentage of the population you think are smokers?

[Dr. John O'Connor]

I couldn't give a percentage, but I know that the community, because of its cohesion and because of the history of the input from medical and nursing staff at the nursing station, has been actively pursuing a healthy-lifestyle direction for a number of years.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I understand that, and I don't think it's any secret as well. What I'm told from the first nations people is that there are extremely high rates of diabetes in the community that I represent, comparatively. I think there are a lot of studies out there that actually show there are differences simply due to biological factors and susceptibilities. We are different to a certain degree, and we're all affected differently by the environment that's around us.

One of the things that would be an indicator or a litmus test is cancer in children. Could you speak to any of your findings or your observations as a medical practitioner? If there was a high presence of cancer in young people, I think that would be a great signal as to any potential environmental problems.

[Dr. John O'Connor]

I'm not aware of specific cancers in children, but I am aware of cancers having occurred in people in their late twenties and early thirties in the community, in particular a form of central nervous system tumour, which I believe has affected four people, two of whom had moved from Fort Chipewyan a short time before being diagnosed. They're not included in the net because their postal codes were not from Fort Chipewyan at the time. That's an area that needs to be explored much more.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

It's hard to track, isn't it?

[Dr. John O'Connor]

Yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

You also talked about statistics, and we could say, well, the quote is that there are lies, there are damn lies, and then there are statistics. But I do have a lot of confidence in statistics. I have a science degree; that's my background. I studied fish. As a matter of fact, I actually studied walleye. I was going to ask you some questions about dermal sarcoma and lymphocystis.

Do you know what those things are, Doctor?

[Dr. John O'Connor]

I'm familiar with them, but not the specific issues.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

They occur in walleye. To an undiscerning eye, they look like a cancerous tumour on the walleye, but they come every spring. What happens is—one's a bacterial infection and one's a viral infection—as the walleye spawn in the spring, they come in close contact with each other, they get these tumour-looking things on the sides of their bodies, and by the fall they're all gone.

When I was talking to some of the fishermen when we were up at Fort Chipewyan, they confirmed the presence of this. I asked them what the abnormality rate was of the fish, and they said one in one hundred. Well, in my experience as a fisheries technician for years for Alberta Fish and Wildlife, whether it was through netting or whatever the case may be, it wasn't uncommon to find fish anywhere in the province of Alberta with deformities. Particularly, it's not uncommon to find them with any of these other bacterial or viral infections as well.

Did you want to comment on any of that?

[Dr. John O'Connor]

I couldn't comment on the one in a hundred, but from my knowledge of being in Fort Chip for seven years, I would challenge that. I think the number is a lot higher.

I'm very curious, if this could explain the fish deformities, then why did the Alberta government refuse to do any analysis of the fish? They refused again and again. To assuage the--

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's a good question. I don't know what the answer is because I'm not a member of the Alberta government, nor am I in the employ of the Alberta government any more.

[Dr. John O'Connor]

Just curious.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's it for me.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Nine seconds.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's pretty much it.

Thank you very much, Dr. O'Connor.

[Dr. John O'Connor]

You're very welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We'll move right along.

Monsieur Ouellet.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Nikiforuk, I would like to talk to you about the National Energy Board. Based on your experience in the field, do you believe this organization is concerned with the environment and with health, or is it only concerned with other interests?

[Andrew Nikiforuk]

I don't think public health is really a mandate for the National Energy Board. When you look at the performance of the National Energy Board, public health issues are not issues that occupy a lot of their time.