Environment Committee on June 18th, 2009

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm not asking about the cost of not doing it. I am asking you if you know how much public revenue, if any, will be required to implement this bill.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's the government's responsibility. You are the government.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So you don't know whether this bill will comply with Standing Order 79.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Have you asked the Parliamentary Budget Officer whether this will—

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Actually, that's one of the questions I'm going to direct my attention to in a minute, because as I understand it, in the last Parliament regarding the almost identical bill, your leader admitted that he had no idea how much economic damage this bill would do to the Canadian economy.

Since that time, you have had an opportunity to advise your leader about the economic impact of this bill, and so I want to ask you, have you asked the Library of Parliament to research for you the impact of these measures, both to public revenue and to the economy at large?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, I have, and I did not get a straightforward answer.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Have you asked the Parliamentary Budget Officer the same questions about the need for public revenue or the impact on the economy of this bill?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I have not. Have you?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm asking you, sir. As a point of order, I don't think you can ask me questions here.

So you have not. Have you, in fact, compiled any actual data yourself about either the public revenue, if any, that would be required or the impact on the economy of this measure you're proposing?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, I have, and I'd be happy to provide some of that information to the committee or to you afterwards. For example, Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has indicated clearly, and has good data to support it, that the benefits and cost savings of appropriate measures to reduce greenhouse gases greatly exceed the costs....

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm not asking you about the benefits. I am asking you about the costs. And I'm happy to wait to receive the information you have personally compiled on that.

I would like, if I have time, to ask whether you're aware that the government's assessment of attempting to meet the Kyoto targets--not your bill, but the Kyoto targets--within the 2008-2012 period would have resulted in a GDP drop of 4%. Are you aware of that information?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm aware that there have been many estimates as to what the costs might be of implementing these. There are wide-ranging--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Are you telling me that you're not aware that this is the government's information?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm going to try to reiterate that there are a variety of projections as to what costs might or might not be, and they're both positive and negative.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

You know, I hate to sound too much like a lawyer, but this is a question that could be answered yes or no. Are you aware, yes or no, that the government's information is that Kyoto targets within the Kyoto period would have resulted in a 4% GDP drop?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think the question is irrelevant.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Again, Mr. Chair, as a point of order, am I allowed to get an answer, or do we have to accept the witness's refusal?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Yes, you should answer the question, Mr. Hyer.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll stick with my answer.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, is there any recourse against a witness who won't answer questions?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm not here today to debate Kyoto. I'm here to talk about Bill C-311.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay, in chapter 20 of Marleau and Montpetit--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

It is contextual for my next question.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Well, your time has expired, but I do ask that Mr. Hyer.... It reads:

Witnesses must answer all questions which the committee puts to them. A witness may object to a question asked by an individual committee member. However, if the committee agrees that the question be put to the witness, he or she is obliged to reply.

We do have a request for an answer to the last question from Mr. Woodworth. We are asking that you respond. I know that it's tough as a parliamentarian to play the witness. We're used to being the members.

A point of order, Madam Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, in the second part of the ruling, you said that the committee has to agree that the question is relevant. So it should be put to the committee, and if we agree that the question's relevant, then he can put the question.