Environment Committee on June 18th, 2009

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

You're here as a scientist and a witness more than a politician.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The political answer is that I'm a rookie, and that's up to this committee, the House of Commons, and the government of the day.

The scientific answer is that there's no statistical significance between those numbers you've just mentioned. Are we going to hit those numbers exactly, either just above or just below? No, we're not. Do we still need a number?

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

I'm not talking about hitting them. I'm talking about the negotiations and the targets that come out of the Copenhagen round of negotiations. If they are good, but not quite what we've been bound to as a Parliament, are we then prevented from signing on to whatever Copenhagen records?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I live in eternal hope that we will get back to a day when leaders like Lester Pearson and Pierre Trudeau showed leadership and weren't afraid of running ahead of world opinion.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Time has expired.

Mr. Braid, you're on.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hyer, for your attendance today.

I'll just start with a few questions to help me get some detail. First of all, why do you select 1990 as the base year?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There are several reasons why. One is that it's a matter of convention, and a variety of entities, countries, scientific panels have used it. I probably am not totally aware of all the reasons they did that, but I do know one of the reasons they did it. It's based on the principle that it partly has to do with the timing of the original Kyoto proposals. That is one.

The other one is there are countries and there are businesses that believed early on they should move in that direction. There's a strong feeling in certain circles that they should not be punished for having moved more quickly.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

In your presentation you indicated we have room to make deep reductions. Can you clarify that statement and what you mean by the fact that we have room or capacity to make deep reductions?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, I'll tell you what I mean by that.

I'll tell you that the single biggest factor is I truly believe, as many people do from all walks of life, that we waste a huge amount of energy today. I've been guilty of it too until recently. I already indicated one change I've made in my lifestyle. I truly believe I could give you a ballpark number--you can make up your own--but I think the easiest, the most cost-effective, the quickest ways in which we are going to meet our targets is through energy efficiency and energy conservation, not incredibly bold new technologies that replace what we're doing now.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Do you feel that Bill C-311 reflects the realities of the current global economic recession?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

For me it's pretty simple. You may have already made up your mind, you may be still thinking about it, but for me it's very simple. That is, if you accept the assumption, which I don't accept, that there may be some dislocations to the economy and some of them are negative, I think that saving the planet, saving humanity, saving species, saving ecosystems is more important than a slight percentage loss, if that were the case, to our economies. Look at what fiscal mismanagement has just done in terms of far larger dislocations in our economy recently. If we're looking not only at what's causing global climate change but also at what's causing--

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Are you referring to fiscal mismanagement in the United States?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There are lots of directions.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Do you feel this strikes the right balance between the interest with respect to the environment and our interest with respect to the economy? This is just to conclude this discussion thread.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Sure. I'm very concerned about the balance. I am a business person. I have three corporations. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm also a conservationist, an environmentalist, and a biologist. Do we constantly need to re-evaluate our impacts and decide which ones are sustainable, which ones are acceptable? We do affect our environment in both positive and negative ways. As Mr. Watson said, at the end of the day, scientists are not going to decide this. It's going to be politicians who decide where that balance is, and that's appropriate.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

The bill sets out targets. Can you clarify the mechanisms through which targets would be achieved? I'm not quite clear on that. It's easy to set goals, but how do we do it?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I bounce that question back to the governments of the day. It's not that I don't have opinions on it, but they have nothing to do with this bill. I guess they have something to do with this bill and that they need to be available and we need to avail ourselves of them. Off the top of my head, I can think of 25 of them, and over a malt beverage some time at Brixton's I'd love to pursue that with you, but for me to do that today--

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

How would you suggest the goals be met?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Through a combination of literally dozens of different mechanisms. There's no magic bullet here.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

What, for example?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, I'll reiterate again that I'd divide them into five groups, and my five groups are these: pricing carbon in some way--and we have different ideas on how that is--

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Do you propose a price for carbon, for example?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, there's cap and trade, there's cap and dividends, there are carbon taxes, there are lots of mechanisms, and I myself am actually not wedded to any particular one. I really am not.

The second one is regulation. Sometimes regulations are appropriate--car regulations, emission regulations, that kind of thing. Public investments, private investments, and personal lifestyle changes, I believe, cover the bases, and under that there are lots of subsets.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay. Tell me about--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Your time has expired.

To wrap this up, Mr. Calkins, you have the floor.