Evidence of meeting #33 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was negotiations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Martin  Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment
John Cooper  Director, Water, Air and Climate Change Bureau, Safe Environments Directorate, Department of Health
Carol Buckley  Director General, Office of Energy Efficiency, Department of Natural Resources

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I call this meeting to order.

We're getting off to a late start here. We will still try to have as close as possible to a two-hour meeting. We're going to continue on with our study of Bill C-311. This is meeting number 33.

We are welcoming to the table today Michael Martin, who is the chief negotiator for the climate change negotiations office, Department of the Environment. We also have, from the Department of Natural Resources, Carol Buckley, who is the director general in the office of energy efficiency. Joining us from the Department of Health is John Cooper, the director of the water, air and climate change bureau in the safe environments directorate. Welcome, all three of you.

Because these are public servants that we have, I want to draw everyone's attention again to Marleau and Montpetit, chapter 20, page 864, which says:

...public servants have been excused from commenting on the policy decisions made by the government. In addition, committees will ordinarily accept the reasons that a public servant gives for declining to answer a specific question or series of questions which involve the giving of a legal opinion, or which may be perceived as a conflict with the witness' responsibility to the Minister, or which is outside of their own area of responsibility or which might affect business transactions.

I want to remind you guys of that again, so, please, when we get into our questioning, keep in mind that we follow the rules.

I'd like to kick it off then. Who is going to speak first?

Mr. Martin, you have the floor.

11:10 a.m.

Michael Martin Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am honoured to be here with you today. I am joined at the table by Mr. John Cooper, Director of the Water, Air and Climate Change Bureau at Health Canada, and Ms. Carol Buckley, Director General of Canada's Office of Energy Efficiency at Natural Resources Canada.

With your permission, I would like to start by making a brief statement providing some observations on specific sections of Bill C-311. My colleagues and I will then be pleased to respond to questions.

Sections 5 and 6 of the Bill define a long-term emissions reduction pathway for Canada by means of a target plan with an ambitious medium-term target of a reduction of 25% below 1990 levels by 2020 and a long-term target of an 90% reduction below 1990 levels by 2050.

The concept of a long-term emissions reduction pathway is already reflected in Canadian government policy. As you know, the government has defined a pathway that would reduce Canada's GHG emissions by 20% below 2006 levels by 2020 and by 60% to 70% by 2050. As a point of comparison, current legislative proposals in the United States also define a long-term pathway for U.S. emission reductions of 17% to 20% below 2005 levels by 2020 and 83% below 2005 levels by 2050.

In the current UN climate change negotiations, Canada and the United States have both supported the idea, consistent with the imperative of achieving deep global reductions in emissions, that all countries should articulate a long-term emission reduction pathway. Each country's pathway would guide national policy-making and help to provide a clearer sense of global emission trends.

This recognition of the importance of long-term pathways was reflected last July in the outcome of the G8 summit in Italy. Canada and other G8 countries recognized the broad scientific view that the increase in global average temperature above pre-industrial levels ought not to exceed 2 degrees Celsius. Further, G8 leaders reiterated their support for a long-term global goal of at least a 50% reduction of global emissions by 2050 and, as part of this, also supported a goal of developed countries reducing emissions of greenhouse gases in aggregate of 80% or more by 2050 compared to 1990 or more recent years.

As I noted, clause 6 of Bill C-311 clearly requires the Minister of the Environment to define a long-term emissions reduction pathway in the form of an interim target plan for the years 2015, 2020, 2025, 2030, 2035, 2040, 2045 leading to the target for 2050 described in paragraph 5(a). I note as well that paragraph 5(b) defines a target for 2020, to be “valid prior to the target plan referred to in subsection 6(1), to a level that is 25% below the 1990 level by the year 2020.” This proposed 2020 target would represent a 38% reduction in Canadian emissions below 2006 levels, which would be one of the most ambitious of any developed country, in particular given Canada's strongly growing population.

New emission reduction commitments by developed countries to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions in the post-2012 period are a key issue in the current negotiations. These commitments are likely to take the form of quantified, economy-wide emission reductions for the eight-year period 2013 to 2020. At Bali in 2007, Canada and other parties agreed that the negotiations on these new emission reduction commitments by developed countries should reflect “comparable efforts”. This concept, which has its origins in article 4.2 of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, suggests that developed countries should each make a fair contribution to the aggregate emission reduction effort by developed countries based on their national circumstances and their mitigation potential.

In the government's view, the key consideration of any assessment of comparable efforts is cost. An important assumption in any calculations of cost is the extent to which the reductions would be achieved domestically and what percentage would be achieved through the use of international offset credits. It is the view of the government that its 2020 target is comparable to that being proposed by other developed countries, in particular given the fact that it does not assume significant purchase of international offset credits.

Finally, I would note that clause 9 of Bill C-311 suggests that Canada's positions in all international climate change discussions and in all negotiations must be “fully consistent with meeting the commitment made under section 5 and the interim Canadian greenhouse gas emission targets referred to in section 6”. I expect Canada will bind its 2020 target internationally as an outcome of the current negotiations. I would note that Canada's commitment to achieve a 20% reduction in GHG emissions below 2006 levels by 2020 is not conditional. Similarly, based on the language of Bill C-311, I assume the proposed 2020 target of the 25% reduction below 1990 levels would not include conditions.

It strikes me as unlikely that Canada would be able to revise the proposed 2020 target once announced internationally, unless we plan to adopt an even more ambitious target. Therefore, the 2020 target in paragraph 5(b) would not readily be subject to revision through the process described in clause 6. If the 2020 target in Bill C-311 were to be dependent upon the purchase of international offset credits, there may be some risks, including in terms of the costs of compliance associated with such an unconditional commitment.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you, Mr. Martin. There are no other comments coming from you this morning, so we'll go to questions and comments.

Mr. McGuinty will kick us off on our seven-minute round.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

October 22nd, 2009 / 11:15 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Chair, I rise on a point of order. Is there any chance that we could have chairs for the rest of the public?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We've put in a request to have some chairs brought in, if that's possible. Because of the way this room is configured, it may be difficult, but we are trying to find some chairs.

Mr. McGuinty.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Martin, Mr. Cooper, and Ms. Buckley, for being here this morning.

Mr. Martin, I want to begin by asking you just a few simple questions. Can you help Canadians understand what are Canada's actual greenhouse gas reduction targets from now until 2012?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

The government has articulated a goal of a 20% reduction below 2006. It may be that this implies a linear reduction, but it would depend on a variety of other factors that impact what actual emissions are. But the goal has been defined as 20% below 2006 levels by 2020.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Mr. Martin, that has been in the context, though, of Copenhagen and the post-2012 period, so what are the targets today in Canada until 2012? As our chief negotiator, do you know, and are you bringing that to bear in your discussions with the international partners?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

The negotiations deal with the post-2012 period. You may be referring to our Kyoto Protocol target, which covers the first commitment period, which is 6% below 1990 levels as a five-year average, 2008 to 2012. That is expressed in an absolute number of about 2.7 gigatonnes as our five-year carbon budget under the first commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

If that's the case, then what are the actual targets proposed by the government now, using 1990 as a baseline year, post-2012?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

If you were to translate the 2020 target to a 1990 base year, it is a 3% reduction below 1990.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

So the 3% reduction below 1990 proposed by the government, which you're negotiating from, is in fact 50% lower than what Canada is already statutorily bound to under the Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

I think if you were to calculate the commitment period in terms of a budget, it would depend on how you make that calculation. That calculation is still under negotiation in the Kyoto track of the negotiations.

It is also important to note that the Kyoto Protocol provides a range of flexibilities and specific rules to parties that they can make use of in order to meet their first commitment period target. It is not the case that a post-2012 target is, by definition, continuous from a 2008 to 2012 target. It really depends on the rules under which countries have to meet a specific commitment.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

If I'm sitting as a co-negotiator with you, Mr. Martin, and I'm representing another nation state, and someone informs me that there's a domestic obligation in Canada that we should be reducing our absolute emissions by 6% below 1990 levels, and you're coming to the table and proposing that we reduce absolutely by 3% our reductions by 2020, doesn't Canada have a credibility problem?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

Again, as I said, it really depends on how you're proposing to meet those goals. The Kyoto Protocol, for the first commitment period.... You may recall that after Kyoto we spent four years in negotiation to determine the rules that would be applied to meet that target. And again, it's an absolute amount. That included rules on land use and land-use change in forestry; it included rules related to the use of international project-based offsets; and it also included rules related to emissions trading, to the acquisition of surplus emission units from countries that had such a surplus.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I understand.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

So in the Kyoto negotiations, in fact, I think that's well understood. The key point, I think, about the 2020 goal is that the government has said it does not propose to make significant use of either offset credits or emissions trading under article 17 of the Kyoto Protocol. In other words, it's a domestic reduction pathway, and in that regard, I think it is comparable to what's being proposed by others.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I understand what you're saying completely, Mr. Martin, and I know you weren't the chief negotiator when a previous minister testified in this committee. I'm not asking you to comment on this, but just for the record, the previous minister stated categorically that Canada would not participate at all in international trading systems or international offsets.

We're not sure what the government's policy is, so in that vein, I want to ask you a question.

You know, there's an old maxim in contract law that he who drafts the first draft always has the upper hand. It's also a maxim in negotiation, as you would know, I'm sure. On that note, can you tell Canadians if you have a plan from the government for climate change reductions? Do you have a climate change plan right now that you're negotiating from, and if you do, can you share it with the people of Canada?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

Certainly.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Do you have a copy here?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

I have a copy of a submission that Canada made in June of this year to the United Nations negotiations. It describes our quantified emissions reduction commitment for 2020, as well as the measures the government is implementing in order to achieve that target. Of course, those measures are in the process of being implemented, and some are more advanced than are others.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Let me ask you this, then, in terms of the plan that you possess, which we in Canada have not seen anywhere. What will the price of carbon be in 2013?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Negotiator, Climate Change Negotiations Office, Department of the Environment

Michael Martin

That will depend on the final decisions, I think, around the industrial regulatory regime. As you know, that work is ongoing. And depending on the final compliance regime designed for the domestic cap and trade system, that will determine the figure. As you may know, under Turning the Corner, the government previously provided a projection of the cost of carbon based on that particular design and that compliance regime. Now we're re-examining that regime, so there may be changes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

When the Prime Minister gave a speech two years ago in London, he said that the price of carbon would be $65 a tonne. And if we heard last week from the chair of the national round table that it will be impossible to achieve the reductions put forward by the government at less than $100, or maybe $125, a tonne, as the French say, qui dit vrai?