Evidence of meeting #35 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was target.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Hornung  President, Canadian Wind Energy Association
John Drexhage  Director, Climate Change and Energy, International Institute for Sustainable Development
Matthew Bramley  Director, Climate Change, Pembina Institute
Aldyen Donnelly  President, Greenhouse Emissions Management Consortium

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thanks to the members for eating up a lot of time here today.

In a full cost accounting, the Parliamentary Budget Officer goes on to say that there could be key assumptions that have to be made about responses of monetary policy as well. In other words, in a nutshell he's proposing something that would take about 12 months to produce that would be far more comprehensive, and I think it would be far more valuable to this committee if he could undertake that study.

But my point here is that this only represents a particular and, I would say, narrow opinion, first of all. And secondly, I would go on to suggest that the assumptions that are made in here.... I think The Globe and Mail noted that Canada would have to turn itself into an environmental paradise overnight. It's a perfect case scenario and it really represents some things that are unrealistic--the California emission standards, for example. Buzz Hargrove of the Canadian Auto Workers union, a couple of years ago called that suicidal for the auto industry. It's not a realistic thing.

Don Drummond himself says that it's not reasonable to expect that technical advances will provide a solution by 2020, yet you're assuming certain things in the account itself.

Have you proposed this unrealistic policy scenario to cover what the actual costs are? They could be higher than what they're calling an economic upheaval, the biggest fiscal shock in Canadian history, deeply disruptive to the economy? Have you in fact underestimated what could be significantly higher costs to the economy?

12:50 p.m.

Director, Climate Change, Pembina Institute

Matthew Bramley

First of all, I object to the suggestion that there's been any dishonesty on our side in this study. We've tried to take a comprehensive look at some ambitious emission reductions in the public domain to try to elevate the level of debate and to try to get away from the kinds of discussions where there is a focus on negative elements rather than looking at the overall picture.

The model we chose is a mainstream model that's been used by the federal government and, on a number of occasions, by provincial governments, including Alberta. There are a number of conservative assumptions. For example, we assumed that Canada would be going substantially further than other OECD countries in its level of climate policies. We didn't take any account of the use of forests to reduce emissions because the models were not capable of that, but that would be another potentially low-cost opportunity.

Other models exist that produce lower costs than this. And when it comes to the international reductions, we used much higher prices than are usually used. Those are all conservative elements of this work.

And frankly, I object to the suggestion that there's any attempt here to produce numbers that are not objective.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you. Your time has expired.

We do have a motion to deal with.

On a point of order, Mr. Warawa.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Mr. Watson made a recommendation that Mr. Drummond be invited as a witness to this committee. I think the points he made are relevant and Mr. Drummond should be invited.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay, I appreciate that. We'll see if he's available.

Madam Duncan.

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Chair, before we go to my motion, I would like to clarify something for the record on behalf of Mr. Hyer. This is his bill. He's not able to be here to defend his bill because he's undergoing cancer treatment. So I'm going to clarify for the record, based on Mr. Warawa's disparaging comments about Mr. Hyer's bill, that it was drafted by Pembina.

I want to make it clear for the record that his bill was not drafted by Pembina. And I want to assure him that the New Democratic Party, through Mr. Hyer, broadly consulted on that bill to NGOs, to industry, and to other governments.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

It had better be a point of order, Mr. Warawa.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Mr. Chair, Ms. Duncan's comments were a point of order, is that correct?

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

She was just providing some comment about the comments you had made in your first reference to Mr. Hyer.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

It's on the record, Mr. Chair, that Pembina was involved with the bill. That was part of the testimony back on Bill C-377, and it also was today. And the reference both times was the case for deep reduction, which is a Pembina and David Suzuki document. So that's on the record.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay, that's taken under advisement.

We're going to move to the motion.

I want to thank witnesses for appearing today and for their testimony. It will help us to form our final recommendations and analysis of the bill.

You are free to leave the table.

Ms. Duncan, you had asked that we deal with this not in camera but in public. Common practice for us is to deal with future business in camera. Since this is something that's not routine for this committee, I'm going to ask that you make it a motion to stay in public. Otherwise, I think the consensus is to stay with the normal practice.

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

That's fine, Mr. Chair.

I move that my motion be discussed not in camera, and by a vote on the record.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

This is a dilatory motion. It's non-debatable, because it's about process.

I'm going to ask the question. All those in favour of staying public? Okay. And those opposed?

Normal practice, as I said, is that committee goes in camera. There is no debate, no points of order, on dilatory motions. The dilatory motion is that we stay public to deal with Ms. Duncan's motion.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

I want a clarification. As a parliamentarian, I want to know, are we currently in camera or are we public?

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We are public right now.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

We're public right now. And the motion before us is--

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

To stay public.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

--to stay public for discussion of committee business. Is that correct?

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

It is.

I'll call the question again.

(Motion negatived)

It's defeated, so we're going to go in camera.

I ask everyone to clear the room so that we can deal with future business.

Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]