Environment Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[John Drexhage]

Thank you.

I think it's really important to take a step back in this debate around climate change. This isn't just about climate change; this is about our entire way of living, particularly within North America. It's completely unsustainable. National Geographic puts out an annual report called “Earth Report: State of the Planet”, and I recommend you take a look at it. It shows in a very graphic way what the world would require if it had the consumption patterns of North America. It would require five and a half worlds, and that is what we're up against. We're dealing now with countries that are developing along the same paradigms and have every right to say they also want to develop along those lines.

Climate change is one manifestation of the unsustainability of this. It has to do with water; it has to do with air; it has to do with all sorts of social systems. It's just not the way we can go forward sustainably. If we tackle this successfully and use climate change as one of the mechanisms in addressing it, it speaks so much more for a future that holds a heck of a lot more promise than what we're facing now.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm hoping I can get to Dr. Hornung, but I have one more question for Dr. Bramley.

Back to Alberta. There was apparently some media coverage today saying your forecast is devastating for Alberta. As an Albertan, I find your projections very encouraging. I have the same response to the testimony by Ms. Donnelly. Contrary to what you're suggesting, perhaps the many maritimers in Ontario and the workers who have to live in work camps in Fort McMurray would like a job alternative, which is what this second scenario presents.

I'm noticing in your scenario, Dr. Bramley, that there only seems to be a 2% difference in job creation. Have you factored into the two scenarios quality of life, types of jobs, living conditions, and so forth?

[Matthew Bramley]

No, we haven't. This is a macroeconomic analysis that looks at the traditional measures like GDP and employment.

But I would add to what you were saying that there have been a number of Albertans calling for a more orderly, reasonable pace of development, particularly in the oil sands, and former premier Peter Lougheed is prominent amongst those. A scenario where Alberta's economy is still growing faster than any province in Canada and where the oil sands are still expanding is by no means a devastating scenario.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Dr. Bramley. I think that the mayor of Fort McMurray would endorse that as well.

Dr. Hornung, thank you for your presentation. Can you elaborate a bit more on the specific monetary or fiscal measures and regulatory tools that would actually help the competitiveness of your sector if the federal government chose to use those? And where are we at right now in that scenario?

[Robert Hornung]

Thank you for the question. I'm not a doctor, just so you know.

To respond to that, as I indicated in the presentation, in the absence of any price on carbon and any realistic market price on carbon, in essence we are faced with a situation where we make choices in the electricity sector without full information with respect to pricing. In that regard, many governments around the world, including Canada, have taken steps to put in place programs that help provide a signal to the marketplace that helps to improve the relative competitiveness of clean energy technologies.

In Canada that program has been the ecoENERGY for renewable power program, established in January 2008 with an objective of supporting the deployment of 4,000 megawatts of renewable energy by March 2011. It's an extremely successful program that will meet its target this fall, a year and a half ahead of schedule. Again, in the absence of having any carbon price framework in place at the current time, we as an industry are looking to government to step forward and indicate that, in essence, support for the deployment of clean energy technologies is not simply ending this fall but will indeed be renewed or continued going forward.

That's very important because, as I noted in my presentation, we are competing with other countries for this investment. The United States has made it very clear that it wants to be a leader in clean energy technologies like wind energy and has put in place programs to encourage and stimulate manufacturing and deployment of these technologies. A failure to do so in Canada will see, in fact, investment dollars leave Canada for the United States, creating jobs and opportunities there that we could have here.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Time has expired.

Mr. Woodworth, you're going to bat cleanup on the first round of this meeting.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all of the witnesses who have appeared before us today.

Mr. Bramley, are you familiar with the fact that the EU targets have impacts that are well below 1% of GDP by 2020?

[Matthew Bramley]

In fact, I saw an EU analysis presented at the Poznan climate conference last year that showed a 2% impact, I think, in 2020, from the EU's proposals.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Are you familiar with the fact that U.S. proposals typically put the cost of their targets at less than 0.5% GDP by 2020?

[Matthew Bramley]

That may be so, but I think we're talking about different targets and different policy.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

As I understand it, from reading your report, the ENGO model in this report places a cost of as much as 3.2% of GDP on Canada by 2020. Is that correct?

[Matthew Bramley]

I prefer to present that in a way that I think makes more sense, which is to talk about the growth that you would have in the economy in a business as usual scenario, and the growth that you would have in the scenario that we presented.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Well, let me stop you there for a moment, because whatever you'd prefer, I would prefer to get an answer to my question. I'm looking at the material you distributed this morning, under page 4, GDP results, 2% target, and for the total of Canada it's minus 3.2%. Am I reading that correctly, or is this a misprint?

[Matthew Bramley]

That means the economy would grow by 23% between 2010 and 2020, at which time it would be 3.2% smaller than business as usual.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I understand that it's 3.2% less than business as usual. All right, so it's a 3.2% cost less than business as usual, is that correct?

[Matthew Bramley]

The economy would be, under this projection, 3.2% smaller in 2020 than under business as usual.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Isn't it a fact that there's no other developed country in the world that has indicated a willingness to bear the economic costs at the 3.2% GDP level associated with climate change?

[Matthew Bramley]

Well, I think, on the contrary, these numbers are small and they're very much in line with--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

What other country, then?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We have a point of order.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Out of respect for the witness, can we at least give him a chance to answer the questions? When government representatives appear before us, their answers don't always have anything to do with us, but we let them answer.

Can there be questions and answers?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, may I make a response?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You're responding on the point of order?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Yes.

I simply can tell when the witness is not responding to the question. My last question, for example, was whether it's not a fact that there is no other developed country in the world that has indicated a willingness to bear the economic costs at 3.2% GDP. If the witness knows of another such country, I'd be happy to hear him tell me that, but if he's going to go off and take my precious seven minutes somewhere else, I think I have a right to interrupt.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

This is a point order; it's not for witnesses to jump in on it.

On the point of order, this is Mr. Woodworth's time, and he can use it as he sees fit, but we do ask that you treat witnesses with respect. I understand that you want to have an answer for the question you're asking, so I do ask witnesses to answer the question that's being asked.

Mr. Woodworth, you have the floor.