Environment Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I have not seen the plan. I don't believe Canada has a full plan. And no, I don't have it beside me.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay.

Chief, let me just ask you this first. Have you been consulted? Have your people been consulted at all in recent memory, say in the last 46 or 47 months since the government's arrival? Have you been consulted in a meaningful way about how to proceed on climate change, particularly given the dramatic impacts we're seeing on your land masses, in your communities?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I can speak best for people of the Northwest Territories. I can clearly say that we have not been consulted, but our concern goes beyond consultation. Because we are at the table talking about the issue of who in fact owns the land, we believe our consent is necessary. So it goes beyond consultation.

If you remember the Meech Lake discussions and all of those constitutional matters, issues in the north could not change unless our consent was granted. This issue is no different.

Our opinion has not been asked on the subject.

I will be in Copenhagen at COP 15, as I was last year in Poznan. We will bring up our concerns. We're not very happy with Canada because Canada has a dismal record at that level.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So, Chief, you'll be going to Copenhagen. The minister is telling Canadians that he has consulted all the provinces and territories. He says he has invited all the premiers. He says that ministers of the environment will be there. You're telling us something different.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I can clearly tell you, because as I said, I've been involved over the years.... I'm not a new player. I also chair NACOSAR, which is the National Aboriginal Council on Species at Risk, and we have not met with the minister responsible.

We have concerns. In fact, we want to appear before you on other matters, but we certainly haven't been consulted. If he's telling Canadians and the world that he has consulted us, then that's not true.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Chief, my last question to you is this. At 11:41 a.m. eastern time here, the media is now reporting that Minister Prentice has announced that he will not be bringing greenhouse gas regulations into Canada, pending not only, he says, the United States getting its own legislation in order, but he's now saying that he is not in a position to bring regulations unless there is an international agreement at Copenhagen or until there's an international agreement post-Copenhagen. How do you react to that?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I think it's really consistent with their position. Canada is refusing to take a lead as they ought to. They say they're waiting for someone else to come to agreement before they move. It's the total opposite of Canada's international way of doing things. Canada needs to step up to the plate, be responsible, and work with its indigenous people, who know the land better than anyone else. We're the most vulnerable people. We are the face of climate change. We are the face of global warming up here. If they're going to wait, then certainly they're going to be waiting a long time.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Masi-cho, Chief.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Gentlemen, we're going to move on to our next questioner.

Monsieur Bigras, vous avez sept minutes.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Erasmus, can you hear me well?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Yes, I can, thank you.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

You talked quite eloquently about the impact of climate change on your way of life and about the loss of biodiversity. But I would like to talk about the impact of climate change in the sense of the thawing permafrost around your infrastructures.

We know that the permafrost thawing over time will have an effect on buildings, roads, airports and any number of infrastructures in your territory.

What do you feel are the priorities that the government should consider? We know that major investments in the north will have to be made in the coming years. What special infrastructure help should the government be providing so that you can adapt to climate change?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you very much for the question, sir.

First of all, we need to come to terms with the fact that global warming and climate change are actually happening. It's man-made. It's not something that nature has created. We have to admit that climate change is a reality, global warming is a reality. I know there are some countries or some governments that are having a tough time even admitting that. So first of all, let's admit that it's happening, it's real, and it's not going to improve unless man does something. And that means every one of us--as individuals, as families, as communities, as regions, as nations, whatever we call ourselves, we all have to do something.

If you want to work on infrastructure and do something about permafrost melting and all the difficulties we see in the north, you have to deal with that reality. It means turning the policies around. It means dealing with the big corporations that are affecting us in northern Alberta. I've mentioned this to your committee before, that we are downstream from Fort McMurray. And we all know what's happening there, but Canada allows it to happen. You are in a position to do something, and if you don't do something, this is going to continue. We can put money into infrastructure and so on, but if you don't deal with those big companies, if you don't say, “Listen you guys, we have to get rid of the emissions, we have to be real with these targets, and we have to quit playing games”, then as people, we're not going to survive very long.

In our view, the report that Dr. Suzuki came out with, with the Pembina Institute, hits the mark right on. Canada can still be a leader in the world; they can still have the jobs they want and be a leader internationally.

Mr. Chairman, I think that's the way we need to look at this. If it takes more discussion across the country, then let's do that. Let's plug into these old-timers who have been here...and it's not only our people. Anyone near my age or older sees the differences. We had snow here last week--we call it “heart-attack snow”--that we only get in March when it's melting. We call it heart-attack snow because it sticks to your shovel, and that's when people can't lift the shovel and they keel over. That's incredible. And if we don't do something, it's not going to get any better.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I have another question on northern development.

We know that a result of climate change is that you see the ice melting in the north. This has two consequences. First, a new shipping channel, a sea route, will be created in the north. Second, it seems that the melting ice will allow access to huge oil and gas resources in the north.

How do you see northern development in the context of climate change and the access to oil and gas resources that can open up there? Do you think that developing the oil and gas, the hydrocarbons, in the north is a good thing? Since you are a major partner, how do you see northern development?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Again, thank you for the question.

The anthropologists tell us we've lived here for at least 30,000 years. The oil and other resources in the ground have been there for a long time. Our people, to a large extent, knew they were there. We used some of those resources. We understand how other people see them. When people see diamonds, for example, we know they act in a particular way. Since we've had diamonds on the market for the last ten years here in Yellowknife, the black market has also been here. We've had activities here we've never had before. There are only 20,000 people in Yellowknife, and the crime rate here is incredible. We need to step back and look at the big picture. We need to ask the people what they want. We have to quit having these big dreams about having pipelines and having ships going through the Northwest Passage and all of these things that don't make sense to people who were brought up in the north and who are not going to leave. Clearly, what that means is....

There are only 40,000 people here. We are still 51% of the population. We are a majority. It is our homeland. Until we sit down at the same table and talk about what our future is going to look like, and until we all have the same ability to have influence in the world, we're going to have a very difficult time.

For example, I'm chair of the Arctic Athabaskan people from Alaska, Yukon, and the Northwest Territories. We're fortunate to be able to sit at the Arctic council table as permanent participants. With the other circumpolar countries we're able to discuss all matters at that table. We don't have a vote, but we're able to bring forward our concerns. We generate a lot of influence. That is part of the north. But when we go to the UN we have no voice whatsoever. Until our nations have a voice at the UN, we're going to have problems. Canada can help us get to that table.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Chief.

I'm going to have to ask you to keep your questions a little more succinct so that everybody gets an equal opportunity to ask their questions. I would appreciate that.

Mr. Tulurialik, are you still on the line? Good.

Continuing with our questioning, Ms. Duncan, you have the floor.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our committee, Mr. Tulurialik and Chief Erasmus. We're glad we found you.

Further to questions asked earlier by my colleagues, I have been approaching the Minister of the Environment, Mr. Prentice, for the whole of last year that I've been elected to request that he follow the precedent followed by previous governments, to include first nations and youth in their international delegations to environment conferences.

Chief Erasmus or Mr. Tulurialik, could you tell me if you have been contacted by Mr. Prentice's office to be included in his official delegation?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

We've been approached, and I believe we will have someone on delegations. It will either be National Chief Shawn Atleo or most likely me. I understand that youth have also been asked to be a part of Canada's delegation. The problem, though, is if we're on their delegation we generally don't speak at the table, unless some kind of agreement comes forward where Canada feels comfortable with us. Right now, my part of the delegation most likely wouldn't feel comfortable with my speaking on behalf of Canada.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Tulurialik, have you been contacted about whether your costs will be paid to go as part of the government delegation?

[Joe Tulurialik]

I don't have all the papers with me right now, but I believe so. The youth have been asked to be at a delegation in that area.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

On a point of order, I think we've been very generous in where the discussion is going today, but the focus needs to be on Bill C-311.

I would ask you to share with the committee whether or not we are veering from that topic. I fear that we are.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

So you're raising a point on the rules of relevance?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Yes.