Evidence of meeting #38 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was targets.
A recording is available from Parliament.
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
—of goods that they spend their money on. And so they have different weightings on different parts of their spending. That means it changes the way they live, but it certainly isn't the worst way to live; it's a different way to live.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
Thank you very much.
Your time has expired, Mr. Ouellet.
Mr. Calkins, you're on.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I've certainly been listening with great interest to the testimony of the witnesses here today.
I wanted to start off by letting you know I'm the chair of the Canada-Poland Parliamentary Friendship Group. I had an opportunity to visit Poland recently. Poland was brought up in earlier discussions, and it was lamented that Poland is still lagging. They're pursuing economic union development, but they're still reliant quite heavily on their carbon technology.
But I also found it quite interesting that Poland is actually the only country in the European Union, given its current state of technology, that has positive GDP growth and a falling unemployment rate. I'm wondering if there's any correlation between the two, and if either of you would like to comment on that. It's the only country that hasn't adopted a wide range of these environmental targets at this point in time.
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
I certainly understand that Poland is still very heavily dependent on coal, which is not its fault—we're also very heavily dependent on coal, and we're all having to manage a transition. I think the reason for its GDP growth is no doubt related to the rate at which it's managing the transition, but it too accepts that it needs to manage a processing transition. The whole world economy needs to manage that process of transition, and the European Union is already committed to it.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Also in your briefing, Your Excellency Cary, if I go to page 2 and the end of page 1, you talked about how in October 2008...and you brought this up in your testimony:
In October 2008 the UK Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) was created, bringing together: • energy policy (previously with the Department for Business, Innovation & Skills), and; • climate change mitigation policy (previously with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs). The overall objectives of this new Department are: • to ensure that our energy is secure, affordable and efficient; • to bring about the transition to a low-carbon Britain; and • to secure an effective international agreement on climate change.
Given the fact that you brought together climate change mitigation policy, none of your overall objectives actually talk anything about climate change mitigation policy, unless I'm not reading something in there. Is mitigation policy enveloped in one of those three objectives that I'm missing?
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
I think the transition to a low-carbon Britain implies mitigation. That's what we mean by a low-carbon Britain. It means with much lower emissions.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
All right, no problem. I'm not sure that we're using the same definition of mitigation or adaptive measures, but that's quite all right.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
No, that's quite all right. I just wanted some clarification. I think I understand.
The thing I do want to stress, though, is this. I represent a riding in Alberta, which of course has been fixed in the crosshairs certainly with the oil sands. We rely quite heavily in Alberta as well on coal-fired electrical generation. We're transitioning, of course, as much as we can to wind energy. We don't have, of course, any coastal areas, so we don't have the ability to do tidal. We don't have a whole lot of rivers. We only have five major river basins in the province: not all of them are conducive to building hydroelectric. So it's a very difficult position for my province to be in to transition away from a carbon-based economy.
And we haven't had a whole lot of luck in recent years as a nation in negotiating with our largest trading partner, which is the United States. There has been a change, of course, in the United States, and I know you've been asked this question before. But it seems to me that the European Union, through its economic policies, has agreed that there is strength in numbers, and it only makes sense that the European Union countries come together to discuss items such as economic policies, such as environmental policy. It seems to be that the collective wisdom of the 27 countries in the European Union is served best when there is that cooperation and collaboration among those countries.
I know you're reluctant to comment on this, but if that were the case, it would only make sense for Canada to engage its North American partners and its largest economic partners in coming up with similar policies and objectives. Given the fact that we haven't had much cooperation with the previous U.S. administration—there seems to be a new level of cooperation with the recent change in the American administration—would you not suggest, as a friend of Canada, that it would seem to be in our best interest to have as many allies or as many collective trading partners as possible to protect Canada's interests?
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
Luckily, I don't want to comment on Canadian policy. All I would say is that it is important that the whole world move forward, and quickly, and Canada is part of the world community.
Conservative
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you, Mr. Ambassador and High Commissioner, for being here. I also want to thank you for your leadership on this file over a number of years.
My questions relate more to the business perspective and the opportunities that the business community has seen in the U.K. Here in Canada, we have had a business community clamouring for a national policy. We have 10 provinces and three territories. I know that from your experience with the European Union you understand the challenges of coordinating many jurisdictions. I and my colleagues have heard many businesses say that they know something is coming and that they want us to help them determine what it is so they can form a plan, make a budget, and take advantage of future opportunities.
Could one or both of you give me some examples of businesses taking advantage of the opportunities created by your governments in their regulatory approaches to the environmental file? Has the business community seen these measures as a positive move?
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
I would say that the whole clean technology business sector, which is one of the fastest-growing sectors in the European Union, is being driven by the sorts of things I was talking about, like the renewables obligation. They knew there was a growing market for any energy they could produce of that kind. The European Union is desperate to have it in order to meet the targets. This has driven very rapid growth in the clean technology businesses throughout the European Union. The one most often referred to is the wind power in Denmark, but it's true throughout the European Union, including in the United Kingdom.
His Excellency Matthias Brinkmann
You asked about what governments did. In my own country, in Germany, there have been incentives for wind energy, the insulation of buildings, and so on, and it has been widely used. It has helped industry a lot in going into these markets.
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
I would like to quote one statistic I've just seen. We have now in the United Kingdom over 800,000 people employed in the low-carbon clean technology sectors, and we're aiming to have 1.2 million by 2015, so it's a very rapidly growing sector.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Am I correct that most of the earlier fears about the challenges to the economy and business interests have been allayed in Europe? There were naysayers at one point, but in the U.K. and the European Union you seem to have turned that around significantly. You said that the business community is now encouraging this trend.
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
In Britain, that is the case. One example that's often quoted in Britain is that the big car companies in America spent hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying to prevent emission controls, but in the end they were forced to spend hundreds of millions more against their own interests because they found themselves with uncompetitive products. In contrast, those who got ahead of the curve found themselves in a strong market position.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
It's tempting, but I'll refrain from commenting on the auto sector challenges.
I am also interested in hearing your comments about the carbon capture arrangement that the United Kingdom has with China, and the fact that it's China that has asked that this be moved to 2014. In this country, previous governments invested significantly in carbon capture technology, but we seem to have stalled in the last few years. What kind of investment has taken place in the U.K.?
I'm a bit upset that Canada hasn't been as involved as the U.K. in this effort with China. We have stalled on further investment in the last few years. Can you give me a bit of history on how you established that point and—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Mr. Warawa, you seem to have a point of order.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
The statements of members in committee have to be accurate, and comments that carbon capture and storage technology has stalled in Canada are not true. We don't want to mislead anybody, and I believe this is a televised meeting.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
I do ask that we respect the diplomats who we have at the table. We don't want to be commenting on Canadian policies and politics.
We will give the floor back to you. You have actually less than four seconds left. I will add on 15 seconds for that interjection, so quickly get to your point.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you very much.
It's not a question about Canadian policy; it's in fact directly a question about U.K. policy. What has been done to establish that kind of leadership in carbon capture such that you're now doing the deal with China?
His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary
I'm not sure that we have leadership. I think this is a technology where Canada has shown great leadership, and it has put a lot of money into trying to develop carbon capture. I think it's a hugely promising technology for Canada.
We are trying to put money into creating demonstration projects in Britain, and we are, as I said, also working with China and others. I think carbon capture is going to be a necessary technology for the world because so much of Chinese power is going to come from brown coal over the next two or three generations.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
Thank you very much.
We have six minutes and two committee members left to ask questions. I'm going to split it between the two of you, with three minutes each, if that's okay.
Mr. Watson.