Evidence of meeting #12 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ceaa.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Wittrup  Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan
Tareq Al-Zabet  Director, Environmental Assessment, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan
Nancy Malone  Vice-President, Operations, Canadian Association of Oilwell Drilling Contractors
Meinhard Doelle  Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

11:45 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Mark Wittrup

It includes federal as well.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

It includes federal.

11:45 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Mark Wittrup

So SARA is an example.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

I see. Okay.

How could we ensure that a list approach would ensure environmental integrity? I think you can speak to this based on the fact that you have your list of criteria triggers, and still you feel that your process retains that environmental integrity. Can you suggest ways that we could do the same thing with a list-based approach?

11:45 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Mark Wittrup

The discussion of what is risk-based gets into a difficult area. Everybody in this room will look at risk in a different manner. So the discussion of risk, to me, would be the right way to do a list. But how you divvy that up, I don't know. We find that having a set of criteria makes it easier. Maybe that's the answer: have a set of criteria to help develop the list, and then they talk to the risk factors that you're looking to protect, the outcomes you're looking to achieve.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

Time has expired. Thank you.

Ms. Liu, four minutes.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

I'd like to go back to my first questions. We know that a common concern in the EA processes in Saskatchewan is consultation with first nations. My colleague brought that up as well.

Do you think the federal government has a role in terms of funding--funding participation in terms of resources around consultation?

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Mark Wittrup

I think anything that would build the capacity of first nations and Métis to be able to effectively review environmental assessments is a good thing. We see some of the first nations in Saskatchewan developing that expertise themselves, but we continually get the comment that there are not enough resources to review it. So through our first nations and Métis relations ministry, there is funding available for the tribal councils to hire people.

In fact, recently we extended one of our environmental assessments by an additional month because the Lac La Ronge Indian Band was able to bring somebody on staff. While the timing wasn't right for the original assessment, we've given them extra time to complete the assessment.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Great.

You also mentioned that shared decision-making is important for social license, among other things. At what parts of EA do you think consultation should take place? Should it take place at the scoping phase as well?

11:50 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Mark Wittrup

We do have the ability to have public comment during the scoping phase. It is important.

11:50 a.m.

Director, Environmental Assessment, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Dr. Tareq Al-Zabet

It's by the act itself; it forces us to do the consultation. There are clear provisions we have to go through. We have to meet that provision, so it's a must in the EA process.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

What should be the specific purpose of public consultation? Should it be simply a top-down information-sharing process, or should it be a process based on shared decision-making, precisely?

11:50 a.m.

Director, Environmental Assessment, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Dr. Tareq Al-Zabet

It's a full participation process. It's a 30-day review—

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

What should be the stated purpose of it?

11:50 a.m.

Director, Environmental Assessment, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Dr. Tareq Al-Zabet

—to see the issues, the concerns of the public.

As I said, one of the six triggers is if it raises—

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

So would it be just consultation and not shared decision-making, or would it be information-gathering?

11:50 a.m.

Director, Environmental Assessment, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Dr. Tareq Al-Zabet

It's information-gathering of concerns, because if the concerns are public-wide, they would be considered as a trigger to go through a full EIA.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thanks.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

Have you finished? Okay.

Then the last four minutes will be for Mr. Lunney.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Thank you very much.

I want to draw the discussion around to amendments that took place in July 2010 with the Jobs and Economic Growth Act, that made some changes regarding a partially consolidated authority for the EA, making CEAA responsible for most comprehensive studies.

Have those amendments made it easier for project proponents in Saskatchewan to navigate the environmental assessments?

11:50 a.m.

Director, Environmental Assessment, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Dr. Tareq Al-Zabet

Frankly, no. I don't know if you want to know the reasons, but it is no.

CEAA still needs the 90 days to decide. The decision-making, even at the CEAA side, has two decision levels, one at CEAA and one by the responsible authority itself. By the new complexity that came when CEAA delegated more to CNSC and NEB, this became just...superficial, really, than having created something more efficient.

So the answer is no.

11:55 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Mark Wittrup

To build on one of our recommendations, we're not sure that our agreement with CEAA holds when dealing with the CNSC or the NEB.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Regulatory authorities often complicate things with their own delays and separate agreements, as it were. Okay.

Currently it's a two-step process after a comprehensive study at the federal level: the federal minister makes an EA decision, then the responsible authority or authorities make their decisions. Further consolidation could occur by providing CEAA with more authority to deal with what are now larger screenings and providing the federal minister with more authority regarding major projects. In effect it would remove the two-step decision-making process after a comprehensive study.

Would this further consolidation make environmental assessments more predictable and straightforward, in your opinion?

11:55 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection and Audit Division, Ministry of Environment, Government of Saskatchewan

Mark Wittrup

Personally, I'm all in favour of anything that removes unnecessary process steps. While it's nice to have a lot of sign-offs, they don't actually add anything to the environmental protection, which is the outcome that's being looked after.