Environment Committee on Dec. 13th, 2011

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You are quoted as saying that we don't really need the same level of monitoring. I have the article in front of me. Are you retracting that statement or are you just clarifying it? You said it wasn't what you were trying to say.

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

I'm interested in what the results are for monitoring. The example I used with at least one reporter was the level of contaminants. If I take flame retardants in Canada's north, for example—many folks know them as PBDEs, polybrominated diphenyl ethers—we have monitored them and the curve goes up in the 1980s and 1990s when they were used. Concerns were raised. We took regulatory action and the level has come down is now very constant and steady. The science would say that you don't need to look at that month in and month out, because you've reached a steady state.

Those are the kinds of discussions you leave to the scientists and the statisticians to say how many times you need a certain data point for good monitoring.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Ms. Liu, your time has expired.

Mr. Sopuck, you have seven minutes.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thank you very much.

What are some of the ozone initiatives that are currently being planned?

[Dr. Charles Lin]

We have alluded to some of these initiatives. One is the streamlining and integration of the networks. As Karen mentioned, we have the Brewer and the ozonesonde networks, and up until now they have existed as individual networks. We will be integrating them together with the other air quality networks that are in place. By doing this we gain efficiency. There's economy of scale that can be gained by having one air quality network where the workers, the scientists, the staff would contribute not just to ozone or particulate matter or any one particular species.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Excellent.

I see, Ms. Dodds, on page 6 of your testimony you said that Environment Canada delivers the World Ozone and Ultraviolet Radiation Data Centre. What's the current budget for the centre, and how much of that is being reduced or rationalized, if any?

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

Again I don't have specific budget numbers for the data centre. I think we've had two technicians who have been really focused on data management. This is more in the IT/IM world rather than in the science world.

In discussions within Environment Canada, my colleagues in the meteorological service, who with weather monitoring, have a lot more demand on them for data management and information management technologies, have agreed that on the more IT/IM perspective, they will take over that part of the World Ozone and Ultraviolet Radiation Data Centre, the WOUDC. We will maintain the scientific input and the scientific oversight of the integrity of the data. This is another way in which we've identified potential savings, because strict data management and data handling is not something in which we have the same level of expertise and experience as our colleagues in the meteorological services group.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

With this change, will the essential work of the WOUDC be maintained?

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

Yes.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Given the changes you are undertaking, how many person-years will be devoted to the centre? Is it possible for you to do that?

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

We are moving to a way of planning whereby we can identify who is working on what. As an example, if we look at some of the recent publications authored by scientists in Dr. Lin's shop, there are 11 authors or 13 authors. More and more, science is becoming a collaborative activity, which makes it almost impossible to ask, “What were the costs of producing that paper, and what are the costs of having an ozone monitoring program?” It all depends on what you include and what you do not include.

More and more in science generally we are looking for people who can serve more than one function. Are you an ozone specialist, or are you a specialist in analytical methodology--the Brewer instrument? This kind of evolution is happening.

We are looking to maintain two research scientists and a number of technicians--physical chemists. They will be devoted to ozone, but will be supported by other people in a lot of different ways.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Do you consider that to be adequate? Will you be able to deliver the same quality of service and generate high-quality information with this level of effort?

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

This is pretty consistent with the level of people going back to 2006 or 2007.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Okay.

I presume you'll still be able to monitor the ozone layer over the Arctic, and that effort will continue.

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

Absolutely. As I said in my opening remarks, it was not unexpected by the scientists. Knowing what happened in Antarctica, they anticipated that this was possible in the Arctic. This past winter was the first time it was verified with scientific evidence that we had a hole. It was a very sizable hole. When you have a hole, more UV radiation makes it to Earth, which is a concern for all of us. The hole in the Antarctic is predicted to resolve, and so is the hole in the Arctic, but you always want your monitoring to confirm what you're predicting.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

That certainly makes sense.

In terms of monitoring stratospheric ozone, do you also monitor the levels of ozone-depleting substances?

[Dr. Charles Lin]

I will have to check that.

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

With me is Dr. Cathy Banic, who is the director of air quality. She's saying that we don't.

You can see in published literature that the use and production of what they call ozone-depleting substances decreased enormously following the Montreal Protocol.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Okay.

As for the environment in general, the media seems to focus on the bad news—which there is increasingly less of in this country, given how our environmental indicators are largely improving. It seems to me that from the results for the ozone layer, we can consider the Montreal Protocol a resounding success.

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

We can. The issue is to always to watch what's happening, because science and technology are evolving, and industry is changing what chemicals we use.

One of the responsibilities of my branch is the chemical management plan. It's a very positive program. We are looking at the safety of chemicals before they are permitted to be used, which was not done before 1990s. I think it was CEPA in 1999 that instigated looking at chemicals before they were used.

You want to continue to monitor these things. We have had success in a number of areas, and the Montreal Protocol is clearly one of them. I talked about flame retardants as another one. We've also made a lot of progress with acid rain and acid-sensitive lakes in eastern Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you. The time has expired.

Ms. Duncan, for seven minutes.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Dr. Dodds. It's good to see you again.

I'm very concerned that ozone scientists have been given workforce adjustment letters. If these are enacted, I believe the cuts to ozone science will reduce Canada's ability to monitor the environment and respond to problems. It will reduce our country's ability to explore the links between ozone and climate change and threaten international science and Canada's reputation.

The manager of the World Ozone and Ultraviolet Radiation Data Centre has very specialized expertise in ozone measurement techniques and analysis not found in Environment Canada outside the experimental studies division. He has extensive contacts and relationships with the ozone community worldwide. Can you tell us how many people work in the World Ozone and Ultraviolet Radiation Data Centre?

[Dr. Karen Dodds]

Currently, in the World Ozone and Ultraviolet Data Centre, we have two individuals overseen by two research scientists.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Has the manager been given a workforce adjustment letter, yes or no?