Environment Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you.

This seems to be one of the critical issues: which level of government do you think is best to deal with these issues? I mean, obviously all three levels of government are important, but which level of government would you work with most closely to resolve this?

[Andréanne Blais]

That is an excellent question.

I believe the first choice is still the municipal level, but wetlands must be taken into consideration in land use planning. Municipalities currently use urban development plans. RCMs, the regional county municipalities, use what are called land use planning and development plans. Unfortunately, information on wetlands is not mandatory when using those planning tools.

Federal and provincial legislation—depending on the provinces—must absolutely impose an obligation for the municipalities to take wetlands into account in their development tools. That would lead the municipalities to rethink land use. However, that obligation must also include financial and other support for the municipalities because they are currently funded solely by municipal taxes, and that is not enough. That leads to a kind of wishful thinking because municipal taxes result in increased development and urban sprawl. Municipal taxes are the source of the municipalities' revenue. It is therefore necessary to review the municipalities' funding and the inclusion of wetlands in land use planning.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Certainly, but would you also agree that it's important to win the hearts and minds of the people they represent, and municipal councillors, so that they understand that these wetlands in urban areas are a plus, are actually of benefit to their community, and are important to preserve?

[Andréanne Blais]

That is correct. The Conseil régional de l'environnement de Laval is working on this plan. We have just submitted the regional vision for Centre-du-Québec. We worked with all municipal councillors and all mayors in the region to develop a vision. Now the municipalities are being asked to adopt that vision and to make it an integral part of their planning tools. It is essential that we work with them and inform them of all the benefits that wetlands afford.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you.

My last question is in regard to mapping, which you talked about. Could you outline a plan, or maybe even submit it to the committee, on how you would utilize the mapping, and do it so that we can focus on both agriculture and urban and bring them together?

[Andréanne Blais]

The cartographic tool is the basis of the decision-making process. Ducks Unlimited Canada, in collaboration with the Department of the Environment, the offices of Ducks Unlimited in other provinces and other players, is currently using geomatic tools to produce satellite images for the purpose of analyzing wetlands. So these people are producing maps.

To answer the question asked earlier, with the available tools, geomatic cartography is also an effective way to monitor changes in wetlands over time. Cartographic tools quite obviously have a degree of reliability. In certain situations, you have to go into the field to check boundaries and the species present. That is essential. However, this is a basic tool to assist in making all planning decisions based on the cartographic surveys that are conducted.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Storseth. You actually had 10 seconds more than you were allotted. I'll take that off your next allocation.

Madame St-Denis.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We asked you what order of government was the most important for the purpose of analyzing wetlands. The federal government's somewhat comprehensive but restricted legislation would provide a common framework for everyone, which would help promote the study of wetlands to ensure their protection.

What do you think of that?

[Andréanne Blais]

That is a question that I would hesitate to answer because, under the Constitution of Canada, matters pertaining to the environment are not included. This is quite a vague management responsibility. Some data are included at the transborder and international level, but many environmental powers come under provincial jurisdiction. It is certainly essential to plan overall policies at the federal level in order, as Mr. Garand previously mentioned, to give all the provinces a standard framework. However, the provinces really have to develop tools adapted to local circumstances.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

All right. I did not expect you to give me that answer.

I have finished, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

With the agreement of the committee, we're going to have one more question from the NDP, and then we need to reserve at least 10 minutes for some committee business to determine the direction of the committee.

The committee has agreed: we will have Monsieur Choquette for five minutes, and that will not be added to the minutes of Madame St-Denis.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I would first like to thank my Conservative colleagues for allotting me this time.

I would also like to point out that we all agree that it is important, as Ms. Rempel previously mentioned, to work toward a national wetland inventory. I am really pleased that this will appear in the final report. So we have overall agreement on this point. I would have liked Ms. Rempel to say a few words in French. She speaks very good French, but that will be for another time because she is very sick today. I will pardon her for that.

I would like to ask two questions that I consider important and that you have both emphasized, concerning the two regional councils responsible for the environment. What you said was very interesting and I thank you for being here.

We have a problem with regard to the value of wetlands. That was pointed out several times. What solutions do you think should be contemplated for considering the fair value of wetlands?

We could begin with Ms. Blais and then continue with Mr. Garand or Ms. Bellemare.

[Andréanne Blais]

The value of wetlands is really an essential piece of information. Several national studies have been conducted in Canada. There has been a survey of approximately 250 studies on the economic value of wetlands. As I mentioned earlier, the estimated value, and it is a large estimate, is $10,000 per hectare. Studies have also been conducted on the green belt, which circles the Montreal area. People come and submit economic studies on the value of all natural environments.

However, these values are hard to integrate into the decision-making process of a municipal budget. They are not tangible values. Elected representatives do not yet understand the reasons why these economic figures should be included. Consequently, there is really still a lot of work to do before elected representatives consider the economic value of these environments. The values must not be used improperly in calculating compensation. No one should destroy a wetland and demand $10,000 in exchange for doing so. We must also pay attention to the way economic value is used.

[Marie-Christine Bellemare]

For your information, the study Andréanne is talking about was conducted in co-operation with the David Suzuki Foundation.

In the greater Montreal area, wetlands provide the equivalent of $117 million a year in goods and services. I believe that is really not a negligible value. However, it is not very integrated into the economic valuation process. Consequently, someone may develop his land but not calculate that developing his land will mean that a wetland is lost. It is very philosophical. It is really an individual issue versus a collective issue. At some point, we also have to think of future generations. Our grandchildren will also need water.

[Guy Garand]

What upsets me is the idea of assigning an economic value to a wetland. A wetland is a life. How much is each individual around this table worth? Will we assign a figure to someone here around the table because he has a big house, three cars, a propriety or something like that? With regard to a wetland, we should take into account its richness and its biological diversity. It is the basis of life.

With all due respect to Andréanne, when she tells me that it is worth $10,000 per hectare, I would ask you to go to Massachusetts and see what value is assigned to a hectare of wetland there. One hectare has been valued at $185,000 a year for services rendered to regulate rain run-off. A value of $225,000 per hectare has also been assigned for pollutant management, for a total of $410,000 per year for every hectare of wetland in Massachusetts. If we want to play with the valuation figures, a wetland will definitely be worth more in an urban area on Montreal Island because it has a more important role to play, compared to the Centre-du-Québec, the high north or Yukon. That is where assigning figures and a cost to this becomes a trap.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much.

I clearly understand the difficulty. When I said "value", I was not necessarily talking about monetary value, but rather value in terms of goods and services. I think it is important to draw comparisons. The cost of land is higher if you engage in development or conservation, depending on the place, as you mentioned.

I know that, in the Centre-du-Québec region, you are trying to establish a social utility trust in order to solicit ecological donations. Can you tell us more about that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Your time is up. Could you come to your question quickly?

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I would like to know more about that.

[Andréanne Blais]

As regards the social utility trust, everyone is familiar with the concept of trusts. In the Centre-du-Québec region, we do not have conservation organizations that can buy or accept lands. That is a problem, particularly for the purpose of implementing our federal ecological donations program. We want to establish this trust, which can also receive funding from large businesses wishing to give money for conservation purposes. This also involves establishing an organization that will be able to monitor wetland developments across the region.

However, being a trust requires you to be a charity. It has to grants tax credits. This status is quite difficult to obtain at the federal level. We are working to solve that problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all of our witnesses, those appearing by video conference and those who have arrived personally. Again, my apologies for the parking issues in Ottawa, but we're glad you're here.

We're going to now suspend for three minutes, and then we'll reconvene in camera just to deal with a little bit of committee work.

Thank you very much.

[Proceedings continue in camera]